The Crown: The Official Podcast

E: Hail the conquering heroine.

M: Ah yes, let the abuse begin

E: You must know by now. Any triumph in this family's bed with a heavy dose of…

M: Envy? Spite?

E: Good natured teasing, to keep one’s feet on the ground. Everyone's very grateful. The prime minister said he was going to write to personally.

M: Better than that…he met me at the airport

E:….Ah.

Welcome to the Crown: the Official Podcast. 

My name is Edith Bowman and this is the official podcast for the third season of the Netflix original series The Crown, taking you behind the scenes, speaking with many of the talented people involved and diving deep into the stories.

Today we're talking about Episode Two titled ‘Margaretology’. In 1965 Princess Margaret embarked on a tour of America with her husband Tony. The tour gained Margaret a legion of fans, with the most dedicated calling themselves Margaretologists - hence, the episode title. 

We’ll be discussing the incredible performance of Helena Bonham Carter as Princess Margaret and events brought up in the episodes. So if you haven't watched episode two yet, I suggest you do it now, or very soon.

Coming up later, we hear from lead director for season three, Ben Caron. 

B: I think all film directors should go on and acting course because I think then they should appreciate what you're asking actors to do when they're in front of a camera and it's so easy to be judged when you're on set as actors.

A: So he was brash and macho and so lewd, that we actually felt if we used more of his real comments, everyone would claim that we were making stuff up. So we had to tone it down.

E: Is that a first?

A: I think so!

But first, I asked showrunner, writer and creator, Peter Morgan, about his exploration of Princess Margaret, in this episode.

E: Episode Two is so much about Margaret. 

P: Yeah

E: So much about, you know, her what's going on with her internally as well as externally. And, and that spirit of Margaret, Helena just exudes that immediately.

P: Yeah, and yet it's a tragic predicament. You know, because Born to go second, you know, in a sense, and yet she's the more I think everybody would agree she's the more alpha personality and therefore probably better suited, you know, at least in her own mind to being front of house.

E: You really feel for her because she's, she has gone through life a second, I'm trying to find her place of purpose. And she finds something. She finds a purpose and she finds something that she's good at and she sees the response that that has goes to her sister, as she has done in the past, with a request and I felt so let down by her sister for the response you really feel for Margaret. And Helena’s face as well in that scene where she just sees Elizabeth and Philip walking towards her. And you can see she's hoping for that. 

P: Yes, bad news again I'm afraid

E: She just seems to constantly be fed bad news.

P: Yes, and your heart breaks for her.

I mean, it would, those are unrealistic expectations. By that point, she's dropped down the pecking order of next in line. And there is a way of doing things and everyone knows what the rules are. And she's been brought up knowing the rules. So it to some degree, it's disingenuous. And also, I mean, her behaviour, so impossible most of the time, but when you see her as a sister that is way into her. Margaret is such a Marmite character. And, you know, I think for a lot of people, they're pretty intolerant of both the way she behaved and and her imperiousness, but, you know, anyone knows that the more uppity you get, it's only it's only an indication of how non uppity you feel. She's quick witted and she's smart. Doubtless the brightest member of the family.

M: You have far too much to do, far too much pressure, far too much responsibility. And I too little. Having no role, having nothing to do…it’s soul destroying.

E: I love the way that it’s shot at the party that she attends in the States. And that's a really interesting narrative as well, where the US and UK are as well, at that time, you know, not always the best of friends as we've kind of grown up to…

P: A brief look into the special relationship between and and, err and, yes, there was a you know, it was particular low point in the special relationship at the time because Wilson did refuse to send any troops to Vietnam, which might have helped the Americans feel that they had an ally, it might have legitimised and you know, and LBJ was struggling. So that felt like a betrayal. And therefore, when it came to asking for, you know, a huge bailout I think the Americans were reluctant. I'm not sure there won't be a few historians that might take objection to the fact that Princess Margaret turned it around with her bad behaviour in the White House. But that's where, you know, that's where we get into, I suppose a, you know, an interesting challenge of the show, which is that you, you're looking for unexpected and surprising…Fresh explanations or insights as to why a historical event might or might not have happened and, and I'm not a historian, you know, I'm not saying this is what happened, folks, I'm saying, this might have happened and I hope you enjoy it. And I thought there was an interesting thing that Princess Margaret was a slightly overlooked, younger sister of the queen who was always front of house and getting all the attention and the glory and so forth. And it was the same with LBJ and JFK, and LBJ was famously frustrated, you know, being a number two. So I thought that that that gave them something in common and I thought that if anybody was likely to charm him, it would be her. And when I heard that she'd had gone to the white house for dinner, I thought, Well, why don't we make that a key event?

M: I'm sorry. Did I say something wrong? I do know these days one is not allowed to think anything other than what a great statesman Kennedy was.

1st Lady: Saying nothing Lyndon!

M: Of course he will say nothing. He was his loyal deputy. But I think I can understand better than most frustrations and resentments that can build up from a life as a number two, A Support act..even of someone you adore.

You spent three years as Vice President, I've spent my whole life as vice queen.

E: Annie Sulzberger, welcome. It's an absolute pleasure to have you here.  You’re head of research on the crown. Now that I think really underestimates the work that you do, because this relationship that you have with Peter, which has been a long standing relationship and what is actually asked of you, can you kind of go into a little bit of detail about where that goes, 

A: Yeah, I think it's a pretty unique department. Or at least usually there's just a single researcher for a script writer and they often work kind of in their homes when needed but to have a department that departments now five people working with Peter from the minute he starts the series so let's look at everything on a on a macro level. Let's get a timeline for the whole decade and usually spanning a prime minister's tenure and start to figure out what these stories could be. As you as you see in the series, you know, they tend to be the stories you never hear about more, are much more character telling stories rather than the big hits of history. We have hundred page protocol Bibles that the team has put together, which is just an extraordinary piece of work. We have actually an etiquette advisor who's on set but we usually film two units at once. So it allows whomever doesn't have that protocol advisor to make in the moment spontaneous decisions and changes. So it really, it goes for every department. 

E: Wow

A: Yeah, it's wonderful. It feels like a very warm family. It feels holistic, and it's in its outlook.

E: It's incredible to hear about the kind of breadth and the depth of research that's done, because this is the most incredible series that is dramatising these people that we think we know, in situations that are historical that have actually happened, but it is still a dramatized series. Knowing that you have this kind of safety net of facts and research that you guys have done just must be a huge help to not just Peter but like you said that the actors but also directed renderer and all the other the all the other departments be props, beer, you know, makeup wardrobe, all those departments.

A: Absolutely. And you know, they're the hard thing about the show is we don't know what happens behind closed doors often and so we have to be even more thorough on the information that is available out there in whatever source that might come into might be in a newsreel clip from 1945 of like the Queen Mother getting on the train. And for one quick glimpse, you get you see her informally greet Elizabeth, because she doesn't think she's being filmed. That alone, I can then write up what that protocol Bible is for her. And so these little glimpses that you might get from a news report from someone who's quoted in an article kind of off the record without realising they might be there giving a little glimpse into Oh, no, she doesn't do that she, you know, she drinks tea, just these tiny little thing. And, and from that, we're able to make, I think, a little feel bit more comfortable that there are these sort of guidelines almost, and don't even It's hard to explain because they're not full examples. But they're little glimpses that I think ground us in making choices about the private moments.

E: So where are we in the world? And where is this kind of, I mean, it's an interesting relationship where the UK and the US are as well.

A: So it's 1965 Wilson has been in power now for a little over a year, when he came to office, he inherited one of the largest deficits you could imagine, at 800 million. And he has to try to figure out a way to not devalue the pound. And in order to do that he needs to go to the United States primarily, as well as the International Monetary Fund to try to get some sort of bailout. And he, in Lyndon B. Johnson's version of events, harasses him to the point where LBJ starts making up excuses like I'm sick or I'm out of town, so that Wilson doesn't show up in his front door.

W: Wow

A: And LBJ had only been an elected president for a year now. So he took over. He was vice president under Kennedy. He took over when Kennedy was assassinated, 63 and then he was elected as the president in the following year. LBJ is a Texan democrat who sort of portrayed himself as this cowboy I don't know like socially progressive guy, but he the cowboy thing, which is sort of a Reagan, people associated with Reagan, he portrayed himself in that way. He was kind of on the exact opposite end of the spectrum from Kennedy. So he was brash and macho and so lewd, that we actually felt if we used more of his real comments, everyone would claim that we were making stuff up. 

E: No!

A: So we had to tone it down. 

E:Is that a first? 

A: Yeah, I think so.

No, screw the Brits. I don't like him. I never liked him. If they're not looking down at you through their noses, they're holding their hands out like beggars. I don't give a crap about any special relationship. If Harold Wilson wants my help he should have thought about that when he refused to support me over Vietnam. You can't screw man in the ass and then expect him to buy you flowers!

A: So he He's such a great character because Johnson hated Wilson, 

E: why?

A: he hated him because…I think for a few reasons. One, I felt like Johnson was far more interested in domestic issues than he wasn't foreign issues. He didn't think the special relationship was particularly important. And Wilson didn't give him boots on the ground in Vietnam. He gave him rhetorical support for Vietnam, but he didn't give them actual tangible, you know, military support. He felt that Wilson was just a sort of civil servant type. He wasn't a national leader, he didn't inspire great things. And that's kind of true I mean Wilson was a pretty state individual. I think a lot of people would argue that actually his campaign, which won in the general election, in 64 was incredibly fiery in some ways. But he was also like a statistician. He'd been in the in government for very long time, in and out of government for a very long time. And he I think one of the reasons labour was able to win under him was because he represented progress in some way but also kind of safe pair of hands to a certain extent, and I think LBJ that was boring. Wilson, by the way, thought he had a fantastic relationship with him.

E: Laughs One sided! 

A: Yeah, he definitely didn't realise he was being ghosted the entire time.

E: You know, it's always referred to as the special relationship between the UK and in the US. And it seems very different than than it is now.

A: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Well, it depends. It's, it's odd. It really peaks and troughs a lot, depending on who's in power. So for Johnson, I think the special relationship was nothing more than a sentimental, antiquated term part partly because he just didn't believe in prioritising foreign affairs very much. And Britain at the time was, you know, had an artificially inflated pound inherited this massive deficit from the previous Tory government. It was hiding very serious financial distress. And if you knew that, then the magic was kind of gone because you thought this is this tiny island with not very much power in the world that is crumbling from the inside.

I wondered… in the past, the royal family has been extremely helpful in keeping the special relationship afloat, and given the predicament the country finds itself in the economically…

E: you'd like us to roll out the red carpet. Make a bit of a fuss?

W: please.

Now we'll hear from lead director and executive producer for season three, Ben Caron. Ben has worked on the crown since the beginning and has directed episodes 1, 2, 3 and four of season three. I asked him what it was the first made him really want to be part of the show.

B: Great writing. I mean, as a director, that's all you want is great writing, great actors. And people who go: ‘Yes!’

E: yeah. You talk about great actors., And of course, the massive change in from that world to see these three that were we're about to launch into is this whole change of cast bar one 

B: Well actually there are a couple of others. 

E: Okay, yeah, when they were the kind of go back in time type vibe

B: Yeah the earlier Margaret Elizabeth, which was it wasn't actually written and then got into the cutting room and then decided or would be really good if we had that.

E: Well, this is what I found fascinating from talking to Peter was that the the Edit room is an important place in terms of it can absolutely change so much it can change the tone of an episode, it could change the flow, or the direction of an episode, you might discover things in that edit room that you hadn't discovered whilst you were shooting.

B: Yeah, I mean, Peter is he's brutal with his own work. As that man I suppose we all are. We're all our own worst enemies. But in particular, you know, he is happy to cut whole speeches, scenes moments in order to refine, refine, refine and I think you know, why use 10 words when you can use one and it's probably the same as director you know why use 10 images you can sort of use one and I think sometimes …ideas that we're in love with in in script stage and in filming will lose in the cutting room and and it's, it's really painful because lots of people have really slaved over working on that and not you know, not just us but you know the entire teams of set designers, costume…beautifully written shot work that prize these prize moments that suddenly when when they're all put together don't have a place in the story, in the films and I you know, his instincts are always you know, always right. These high standards that he reaches for that we all reach for kind of explains on screen. But yes to go back to your question about the sort of reworking or re editing or re shooting is that certainly with Episode Two with Margaretology, it was a sense that we wanted to look at the origins of Elizabeth and Margaret. And so then that was what's beautiful about season one or two, we traced back to the younger Margaret, young Elizabeth and the dynamic between the two of them, that relationship between number one and number two, and how that sort of shadow cast its way all the way through and you know, into where we find them in season three. And actually, it's beautiful. Now, it sort of really bookends the sort of meat of the show and I love going back to see those two lovely actors, Verity and Bo.

E: I don't think I can do it.

M: I could.

E: I know you could.

M: I’d love every minute! To be on every coin, on every bank note, to be the most famous woman in the world! I’d be so very good at it. Wearing a big crown, giving everyone orders.

E: Yes

1930

2354

I think that's what I loved about the potential for this show that that it was going to be brave and bold enough to recast, you know, halfway through that there would be this you know, freshening up.

B: Peter’s always writing about the royal family and how how does it modernise itself and I think we you know, almost have to look in the mirror and go ‘How do we modernise the crown, or, how do we change it or adapt it?’ And I think part of that exactly was changing…It feels like in a new show, but still the same show still has the same DNA. But, you know, we've got all these amazing, amazing, brilliantly talented actors who… and it does feel like that. And I, you know, some of these long running series, they can get slightly sort of tired. And, and also, I think some of the actors can get a little out of us. You know, I think they want new challenges. And I think they don't come to work with that sort of get up and go, and the actors coming in, the Olivia's and the Helen as they the Tobias is that, you know, they were sort of facing not only the ghost of the character, they play, but also the ghost of the actor before that. So it's pretty, I'd imagine it's pretty terrifying coming into that. However, Olivia and Helena are, you know, grand dames of sort of acting and they got pretty bored shoulders. And I think within the first few minutes, they sort of stepped in. It was like This is theirs and I think they have, you know that that baton that has been passed has been reflected, but they have really made that their own. It's just amazing to see.

E: You’re under appreciating in your role in this as well in terms of the fact that you're directing this episode. So you're bringing together those performances and that right in to shoot that and to create that set and to capture it.

B: Yeah. (Laughs) I mean, yes, you know, so there is this relationship between those actors and your crew and, and you have to bring them all together at the same speed and pace and those things kind of have to work together.

E: that's why you're, you're still here in series three and series four in terms of what you've grasped of his vision and how you reflect that in your work.

B: So I used to work in theatre. I actually wanted to be an actor, and then I realised it was terrible. And then there's the direct theatre and so my

E: Do you think that helps the appreciation of that side of it

B: massively. I think all film directors should go on and acting course because I think then they should appreciate what you're asking actors to do when they're in front of a camera and it's so easy to be judged when you're on set as actors because, you know, it's it's such an odd business you're asked to pretend to be truthful, defined, you know, and and with this writing, you know, you've got that sort of what's on the surface, but then you've got all these caverns and depths of subtext and sort of different motivations going on underneath like what sort of what what do you really want like in any situation now what do I really want from from this podcast? I just want people to think I'm know I'm talking about and, and I, you know where to go, Well, I kind of want you to like me, you know, but I'm not going to say all that! But you are asking them to do all this on on set in front of all these people and not to be embarrassed. So trust is really important and that that trust that you have with these actors permission to fail. What I mean by that is getting them to do stuff that they probably would get a god that's gonna be terrible and most the time it might be terrible, but then you would never judge that but then occasionally something happens. You go, that was really good. And they surprised themselves. Yeah. But you have to create that to to allow that that sort of atmosphere to happen.

E: There's some wonderful scenes in Margaretology. Helena playing Margaret and her relationship in place in the family is really kind of put into question by herself as well as the rest of the family and be that her relationship with Tony or relationship with their sister, her relationship with her place and her role as well. And just be great to talk to you as director of that episode is to kind of how you sort of formed that and the conversations as well that you had with Helena about that character as well. 

B: With Helena her prep work for this project is amazing. You know, we I've been around a house umpteen times months and months and month before we started shooting this. You know, the very first time I met her, she had just seen a had a seance when they're… not séance…Yeah, maybe a seance. 

E: Yeah, round the table with a spirit person…

B: Yeah, where she asked, where she called for Princess Margaret to arrive and…

E: Shut. Up – This is amazing!

B: Yeah, no, no seriously do not know this? 

E: This is brilliant. 

B: So the first time the psychic turned up, Princess Margaret wasn't there didn't turn up. So she, she left and then she came back again second time, she did turn up and Helena asked her permission, could you play her? Which she gave apparently - I know! You're gonna have to ask her this storey as well, because I'm paraphrasing it but apparently, Princess Margaret told her that you need to tidy yourself up a bit, that she was a bit scruffy and she'd have to smarten herself up, but that she thought she would be perfect for playing role but I'm sure she could tell you in more depth about how that conversation went. So that was my first meeting with HBC which, which I knew I loved it because everyone, every actor has different approaches to how they come into this role. And I know She had met Princess Margaret in alive Princess Margaret in the past and now dead princess Margaret (quite strange). And I think the Bonham Carter's are quite famous, I think, actually the Bonham Carters are in season two at a wedding once…but so she had met Princess Margaret a couple times and knew that world slightly and I think she just wanted to feel that this was something that she could do, that she can go and get permission to do. And then it was just a process for her of meeting as many people that knew her, reading, talking about it, and then just gorging and all that information until the day and then hopefully that then sort of just comes out in various different ways. 

That performance from Helena is quite extraordinary, because, you know, when she's signing when she goes to Washington, and when, you know, there's amazing sequences with Lyndon Johnson where they're sort of dancing and they’re doing the limericks...

E: she’s holding court.

B: yeah she is holding court and you do you know, You do for a moment go wow…

E: Any more?

W: Princess Margaret won the evening eith this one: the was a young lady from Dallas who used a dynamite stick as a phallus…

M: They found her…

W: errm

E: You’ve made it this far… 

W: They found her vagina in north Carolina 

M: …and her arse hole on Buckingham palace!

E: Bravo

B: The queen or Harold Wilson couldn't get Lyndon Johnson to offer a bail and and Margaret has gone over there and she has won them over and you know Peters clever writing is in many ways Lyndon Johnson is quite similar in terms of Margaret, he was a number, you know, was a number two on the GFK for a while, so there was a sort of kindred spirit there between the two of them and I think that in and that's where Peters writing is brilliant, you can sort of see the parallels between that, but then she comes home and then Elizabeth says, you know, you weren't…it was just a dinner in and that your heart sort of crushes in that one moment, but you know, it's sort of left for that tiny little bit of hope and then which then Philip sort of squashes pretty soon. 

E: I thought he liked her!

B: Yeah, I think he does. But he you know, he talks about the dull, the dazzling the duty, the dangerous, the sort of two personalities, the number one and number two, and then of course in in that and you go all the way back to season one. And you think about the Duke of Windsor and you think about the dazzling and how dangerous that was and then so all of these amazing kind of origin sort of through lines make…well I certainly felt in that moment they're actually it would be dangerous to have Margaret even though brilliant though she is, it is dangerous and we could be could be in situations where they overstep the mark and these dynamics these political dynamics are, you know, they're delicate aren’t theyt and I think you sort of say okay, no, she  needs to find their own path in life and being the Queen sadly, somebody somebody’s already got that job.

E: It's that's that shot when she's in the garden waiting for Elizabeth and Philip to come out. And she's got this kind of look of just hope. And yeah, and then and just the facial expression that HBC has got is just, it's just breaks your heart. 

B: Well, I think that that's what I love about the crown is that you know, you Peters beautiful writing and then within the spaces you've got…you've got the silences which again tell you more than any words could and you see in that moment there were two sisters meet eye and she knows immediately that she's not going to get what she's asking. And this heart breaking.

P: There have always been the dazzling Windsors and the dull ones…

……….

E: ….She's outside she knows we're talking about her

P: let's join her then. That feverish mind of hers needs no encouragement.

I’m Edith Bowman and my special thanks to our guests on this episode Peter Morgan and Annie Sulzberger and Ben Caron.

The Crown: The Official Podcast produced by Netflix and Somethin’ else in association with Left Bank pictures.

Join us next time when we go behind the scenes of Episode Three, which depicts the devastating tragedy that befell the Welsh mining village of Avalon on the 21st of October 1966.

MC: Sorry to interrupt your Majesty, Michael. I’m afraid there’s been an incident in a mining village in south Wales. A coal waste tip collapsed and slide into a junior school. It’s clear there has been significant loss of life, and I would suggest an immediate response.