The Crown: The Official Podcast

Before we get started with this episode of ‘The Crown: The Official Podcast’, please note that we’ve recorded this podcast series over the past year alongside the production of season five of ‘The Crown’. So, some of what you will hear was recorded before the passing of Her Majesty The Queen and the accession of His Majesty King Charles the 3rd.

…Imelda Staunton: Probably my second... that's a rather personal question.

Edith Bowman: Welcome to 'The Crown: The Official Podcast.' I'm Edith Bowman, and I'm so excited to be back once again with a new season of the podcast. And of course, with the brand-new season of the Netflix series 'The Crown'. 

This show will follow the fifth season of ‘The Crown’ episode by episode, taking you behind the scenes, speaking with many of the talented people involved and diving deep into the stories. 

At the end of season four, we left the Windsors at Sandringham, with tensions in the family running high. Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip were exasperated with the Prince and Princess of Wales giving no ground on their pleas for change.

Charles was determined to get out of the marriage, and Diana was left isolated and angry, with both on a warpath that could damage the monarchy forever. 

Onto season five, and we enter a truly tumultuous time for the Royals - and we meet the third and final cast to play these characters. 

So, let's get into episode one of season five of 'The Crown' titled 'Queen Victoria Syndrome'. 

It's 1991, and Queen Elizabeth travels to Balmoral aboard her beloved Royal Yacht Britannia, discovering that the aged vessel needs some serious repair. Meanwhile, the Wales' make a show of their second honeymoon, hoping to boost public confidence in their broken marriage.

When a newspaper takes a swipe at Elizabeth by comparing her to her latterly unpopular ancestor, Queen Victoria, will the Monarch face up to reality? Or will she let deep and dangerous cracks in her family continue to threaten her reign? 

We'll cover specific events and scenes that feature in this episode and other moments across the season.

So, if you haven't watched episode one yet, I suggest you do it now, or at least very soon. 

Jessica Hobbs: It's on you, this is gonna work right? 

Edith Bowman: No pressure! 

Jessica Hobbs: Completely, and you have to say ‘it’s completely gonna work’ but in the back of your head you’re running like a kind of demented squirrel across ice. 

Edith Bowman: I wanna know how you think about introducing your new Queens to us, you know, because it actually goes from Claire to Imelda.

Peter Morgan: I think because I found the boat or the Royal yacht, such a helpful thing to write about both because of how important it was to the Queen. And, also, you know, just as an obvious metaphor of both for her and for her reign and, the boat was, I call it the boat.

You know, uh, uh...

Edith Bowman: The Royal Britannia..

Peter Morgan: Yeah, yeah. The yacht…was commissioned by her father, George the Sixth. And she, because he died earlier than anyone expected, when the yacht was ready, by that point, she'd just become Queen. So it's just this perfect embodiment of her reign. And so that obviously was a natural opportunity to go then from the launch to where it was and, and all the accompanying I suppose jokes about wear and tear and, you know, it just led itself naturally to a doctor's surgery and a, and a check-up. And in particular, you just see, you know, what's happened to skin, what's happened to feet, what's happened to...

Edith Bowman: Weight. 

Peter Morgan: Yeah. And, uh.

Edith Bowman: But, it's - what I like about it is it, it's a really gentle tone to start the season with as well.

Peter Morgan: Yeah.

Edith Bowman: Because, I dunno, it feels like we're walking with Imelda's interpretation of her in a way. 

Peter Morgan: Right, right.

Edith Bowman: It's a really nice kind of, almost like she's kind of, you know, here I am, come with me kind of thing. It's a really nice way into her. 

Peter Morgan: Well, she has a different energy to Olivia Colman. And so, you know, when you do that particular baton pass, you're going from someone who, I mean, Olivia of course can do anything, but she is strong, and Imelda can do anything, but she is more naturally vulnerable, I think. 

It was clear, the minute they opened their mouth at the readthrough - I was like, oh, blimey. Um, because what happens is the first time I see the actors, you know, because these actors are all of a calibre and a weight that you don't audition them. So, so these people all...

Edith Bowman: No one auditioned for the main cast?

Peter Morgan: Not really. I think they were all offers only.

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Peter Morgan: And you feel confident, you sort of think, okay. I think mm-hmm and then, and then they turn up to the read through and they start doing it. I remember thinking "Oh, wow. That's different" because I've, so I've written the parts exactly the same way. Of course, you make concessions for age and adjustments, but by and large, I've got the voices in my head, and I write the voices, you know, and then an actor takes hold of it. Each one of them brings their own energy and, you know, Dominic West won't stop being Dominic West just because he's also being Prince Charles.

The minute Dominic started reading the parts of, of Charles, it was like, oh, okay. This is a very powerful character now. This is not where we'd left off with Charles with Josh.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Peter Morgan: You know, Josh O'Connor, there's a sort of delicacy, a vulnerability, and a fragility to him. All of which was riveting for a young Charles at that period becoming Prince of Wales and so forth.

Dominic has none of that. He's a baritone, confident man in his prime. And so, when you combine that with Imelda being naturally a more vulnerable person, I think, or a more…I'm not suggesting more fragile. I'm just suggesting that there's a difference between her and Olivia, and there's a difference between Josh and Dominic, that suddenly left you with a completely different power balance between Queen and Prince of Wales.

And that, suddenly he felt like a very significant threat. And all the scenes between them in the read through, and I suddenly thought, okay, okay. I have to, I recognize what's happened here, and I have to, I can't write against this. I have to write with this. And so I did go away and write more about, I suppose the threat that the Prince of Wales poses or his frustrations or suddenly he was a King in Waiting, and suddenly he's looking at his watch going "when's it my turn?" 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

John Major: What are you saying sir?

Prince Charles: I’m saying…what a pity is was, what a waste…

….Well, then you'll have an opportunity to judge for yourself, whether this institution that we all care about so deeply is in safe hands. 

Edith Bowman: Where do we find the Queen? Where is she as we drop into this new season? 

Peter Morgan: She's a lady in her late sixties, or, well, she's around 70 and Annus Horribilis is just about to happen. So, what we're looking at is a family, you know, she's presiding over a family in which all her children are unhappily married. And it felt in the early nineties, like a family in crisis, real crisis. And the thing about the monarchy is if the family is in crisis, then it naturally spills over, and you can see nowadays how hard they're fighting the PR to keep the monarchy away from the Royal Family.

Edith Bowman: And speaking of the family, we have to mention Princess Margaret. Lesley Manville is gorgeous as her in this season…

Peter Morgan: Yes.

Edith Bowman: …as Margaret. 

Peter Morgan: I know. And it's heartbreaking because what's, the show seems to have become more and more of an ensemble piece. So, you would normally think, right, great. We've got Lesley Manville let's write the whole show around her.

Right. And, or I've got Dom, you've got Dominic West or you've got Elizabeth Debicki or Imelda Staunton, or Jonathan Pryce for crying out loud!

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Peter Morgan: So why wouldn't you commit an entire season to any one of those? And actually the need, you could feel that the story was broadening out, that it started with Claire Foy and Matt Smith that it started with, you know, and that it was really just a, a story of a couple.

Edith Bowman: Mm-hmm.

Peter Morgan: And now it's branched out into something much, much…It's it's branched out into a responsibility, carried by many more people. 

Edith Bowman: But it always comes back to the crown. 

Peter Morgan: It comes back to her. It comes back to the governor.

Edith Bowman: Always, always comes back to her. 

Peter Morgan: Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: With her verruca plasters on her feet.

Peter Morgan: Yes, God bless her.

Edith Bowman: This family drama really does all come back to the Queen. And this season launches by going right back to show ‘The Crown's’ first iteration of her majesty, Claire Foy. 

So, when I spoke to the director of this episode Jessica Hobbs, I had to find out about the stunning opening sequence, which uses newsreel footage to recreate the 1953 launch of the Royal Yacht Britannia, attended by a cheering crowd of thousands.

Jessica Hobbs: Initially that was written, you know, with Claire, not as newsreel but Peter always knew he wanted it. And then he took it out and put it back in again.

Edith Bowman: Mm-hmm 

Jessica Hobbs: It was gonna be one of the most expensive sequences we'd ever filmed on 'The Crown'.

Edith Bowman: That's expensive.

Jessica Hobbs: Yeah, it is expensive. And it was also very challenging. Claire was in Canada. We were trying to find a date that would work. It kept moving out and out and out. I started to feel anxious about, are we ever gonna get this? Do we need to think about another beginning? 

Then, what Paulo and I did, the editor I work with, was we found the original newsreel of her, which we'd been using as a reference. And I said, look, can we just try cutting it in as a placeholder. And just see whether we feel it's, it's worth continuing down this road, and it was electrifying. And then we started, I said, do you think we could do a kind of Zelig kind of idea with Claire within that newsreel footage? And before we got Peter in there, I thought I've got to know that I can do this, that we can pull it off.

So, we've got the visual effects department in, the sound guys in, kind of all the post team and they all watch it - and I love our visual effects department - and they just immediately went, we can completely do this, we can drop her in. And the art department were like, I can build this section of where she was.

So we started to create this kind of story boarded idea of exactly how we could slot her into the existing footage. So we would have the 30,000 strong crowd, and we cast the faces to match the faces that we knew existed. 

Edith Bowman: Wow. 

Jessica Hobbs: Our beautiful visual archivist, um, Victoria Stable - because that was the other thing I was like, we've got to find out if Pathé and Movietone are gonna give us… we're gonna start to muck around with their footage. Are they gonna be open to that? And they came back and they were brilliant. They said, you can do whatever you like. I was like, okay. Cause we're now gonna drop a different Queen into the original one!

And then I was nervous because I hadn't worked with Claire before and I'd sent her an email and said, look, this is what I'm we're trying to do. And hope it kind of fits in with what you're thinking. And she arrived in the morning, she was delightful. She said, I think it's brilliant. And I'd sent her the cut so she could see how it was going in and how we were trying to, I mean, we were lucky because I could show her how we wanted to go to Imelda and how we thought the transition could work.

Edith Bowman: Yeah it’s a lovely transition where we see the young, hopeful Queen's speech followed by the ageing Queen having a health check.

Jessica Hobbs: And in a way it was wonderful. It's very rare to get the chance to retrofit something. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Jessica Hobbs: And I'm really proud of it. 

Edith Bowman: I think that's a really great example of what I've been lucky enough to witness, is this constant collaboration and encouragement for ideas. It's about what facilitates the story, the narrative, the emotion - 'The Crown' - to the best that it possibly can. And that's a constantly moving thing.

Jessica Hobbs: It is. And it's such an extraordinary team of people who care so much about it, you know, with Peter being at the heart of that. But a lot of people got involved in that process, but I do remember him saying to me, "It's on you. This is gonna work right?" 

Edith Bowman: No pressure!

Jessica Hobbs: Completely. And you have to say, it's completely gonna work, but in the back of your head, you're running like a kind of demented squirrel across ice going, it's gonna work, it's gonna work, it's gonna work. But it did.

Clip – Young Elizabeth Launches Britannia part 2 

Jessica Hobbs: So can we talk about the boats for a second? Because, so there is a transport department which are amazing, and then there's a vehicles department. And then within the vehicles department, we then had a Marine department. So we had a Marine coordinator, and Ben Wilson, who was the cinematographer at the start of the season that I'd worked with last year is just brilliant, said, I know this extraordinary guy and we met Darren and he was great.

And he, Darren and Robin came in and they took care of everything, which was helping negotiate getting the boat. So these are multi, multi million dollar boats that are used by extremely wealthy people that aren't that really interested in what a film crew's got to pay or what you do or whatever it is.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Jessica Hobbs: So you're trying to negotiate. You're then having to fit. They've got, well, I've got one week here and I could be in this area of the world and you're like, can we get the entire crew to that area of the world? Is a week enough? What can we do? 

Edith Bowman: Wow. 

Jessica Hobbs: And, and there weren't a lot of options of boats that were the size of ‘The Alexander’ at that time. So we knew once we found ‘The Christina O’ that that was it. So, we did all of that, but also then they've got to do, you know, the safety of getting actors on and off, crew on and off, how they get people on ribs. Do we board? How do you get the gear on? How does the gear come off? Just the logic of those, I was very grateful that someone else was taking care of that.

But also just the safety of it. You know, kids getting seasick, finding it hard, huge waves coming in. Okay, we have to relocate, or we have to go back into shore. You're halfway through a scene. The weather changes all the time. 

Edith Bowman: Wow.

Jessica Hobbs: The horizon is changing all the time. You have to be quite flexible. 

Edith Bowman: Wow. 

Jessica Hobbs: Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: That's just the boats.

Jessica Hobbs: That's just the boats. 

Edith Bowman: I mean, Charles and, and Di, it's interesting because we all know the story. Well, we all think we know the story, and we all know the outcome. But the amazing way that it's written, and it's been shot is that we feel, well I feel like anyway, I'm coming into it and that's kind of all disappeared. 

Jessica Hobbs: So this is the biggest challenge with our show is you're essentially telling a story that everybody believes they know, and yet you want to have them on the edge of their seats and engaged in what the drama is.

And to me, that's about making those people feel as real and as understandable as possible, even if you don't like what they're doing, it's that sense of being able to just walk in someone else's shoes? And so for us, it was just finding little bits of where do they get on, how do they connect? You know, it's difficult parenting when you're in a kind of slightly separate situation and you understand that there's a third person in the marriage, and you understand all those things, but you still life goes on and the ordinariness of it has to be functional every day. 

And so it's opening those little windows, I think that that allows the audience in.

Edith Bowman: Mm. Where do we find Charles and Di at the start of this season? What's the state of the, what's the state of affairs? 

Jessica Hobbs: Well, we finished them in the end of last season where she comes into that room and she's slightly frozen out by the family. No, one's really looking at her. No, one's really talking to her, and Philip said to her, it's not about you.

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Jessica Hobbs: And so I think that we bring that into what we're are looking at, but what we're trying to set up is they're getting along. They've agreed to disagree. They're relatively functional. The holiday means a lot.

But I think they are caught in something that they feel they may not be able to get out of. And there's a desire for love. You can't make that go away. I really love the scene on the boat where she's asking if they can go shopping and doing stuff for the boys, and she's standing up to him, even though the other friends are perhaps more sycophantic.

Edith Bowman: Yes men.

Jessica Hobbs: Yeah, exactly. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Jessica Hobbs: But I kind of love the way…I mean, Elizabeth made a really brilliant choice in that she was like, oh, it doesn't have, I'm not worried about it. I'm not embarrassed. How many times would he have done this to me? I just wanna make sure the kids have a great holiday as well. Not just the boring, you know, the ancient ruins we’re going to.

Edith Bowman: Not another museum!

Jessica Hobbs: So she's pushing him: water sports and beaches. And with Dominic, he's quite charming in that response to it. But it's hard for him, you know, it's like the control thing is always there. 

Edith Bowman: Now as we know, 'The Crown' is a drama, but it is based around real people and real events. If you’ve listened to this podcast before you'll know that we love to dig deep into the history that underpins the stories with Annie Sulzberger, The Crown's Head of Research. We'll hear much more from Annie in this season in a brand-new feature. I'll tell you more about that in a little bit…

But first, I wanted to hear more about the Wales's so-called second honeymoon.

Annie Sulzberger: By this point, it's 1991. It's their 10-year anniversary. They start to split offices in the late eighties. They sort of cleave them in order for them to do more solo things because right now they're just not doing well jointly. And they seem to be sort of happy with this arrangement, but what happens in allowing these solo engagements to take over is that Charles realises he's in a much weaker position than she is. So jointly when they're written about, and they do an event together they're written about as a pair. The second you separate them, people want Diana. 

It's very clear by the summer of 1991, that he is not looking good in the press, and public perception has to change if he wants to really launch himself as like a dynamic heir to the throne. So, his private secretary, Richard Aylard says "Hey, let's make a big deal out of your 10-year anniversary."

They are lent a yacht to sail around Italy and, you would think, cause it's your ten-year anniversary that it would just be the family? No. He invites what Diana would call Charles' cronies, they're all good friends of his. So, she already knows going on this, this is just sort of for show, this is no intention of rekindling, any romance at all whatsoever. This is just to rehabilitate. 

And essentially you just have these two people on a boat where they're just seething, and that seething sort of isolation starts to take over from this point for her, where she's like, ‘This is a sham, I don't wanna live this lie’. And it’s this summer that she decides it’s time to get her story put there and participate with Andrew Morton on his book.

Edith Bowman: So in this episode, on one hand, we have Charles and Diana on a yacht in Italy on more of a PR trip than a holiday, the war of the Wales' is about to kick off. And on then on the other hand, we have Queen Elizabeth on the way out to Balmoral on her Royal yacht. Now, we know that Britannia was really special to Elizabeth and Philip, but what I love about this part of the episode is seeing the Queen's close relationship with Princess Anne.

What was going on for Anne at this point? 

Annie Sulzberger: Anne's in love.

Edith Bowman: Again? 

Annie Sulzberger: So one of the things we didn't have time to cover at the end of series four, is that Anne and Mark, who've long been sort of estranged, but very, very decent towards each other, decide it's time to separate. And that, by that point, she has met Timothy Lawrence who was equerry to the Queen and she met him on Britannia.

And they, I think they started dating around 1986. The kids know him. It's a known relationship within the palace and they will eventually marry in 1992, after she's fully divorced from Mark. And supposedly his presence has led to this wonderful blossoming of her relationship with her mother. He's an incredibly decent guy, highly respected above and below stairs, utterly besotted with Anne.

Edith Bowman: What's the significance of the lighthouse?

Annie Sulzberger: So Anne has an unusual hobby, which is called pharology. The more common phrase now is called lighthouse bagging. And from what we understand from about the age of five, she sort of got interested in lighthouses when she visited one on the Isle of Lewis in Scotland, with her Mum and she likes to collect lighthouses. She likes to visit lighthouses, maybe the view, we don't know. In ‘93 she becomes patron of the Northern Lighthouse Board, and in about just over a decade, I think she visits something like 70 lighthouses with them. She sometimes will take like a yacht on her own with Tim Lawrence and go bag a lighthouse.

Edith Bowman: I love that the terms, bagging lighthouses.

Annie Sulzberger: Lighthouse bagging. Yeah.

Edith Bowman: Something you definitely cannot put in a bag, but that's cute. 

Annie Sulzberger: Very, very odd, but like, like Anne, I just like, she likes what she likes, and she commits to it and she does it.

Edith Bowman: Is it easy to sum up, kind of culturally and politically, the context of where we were at that time? 

Annie Sulzberger: Something that we don't show, but is really good to keep in mind is the Gulf War. 

So the Gulf War started in August ‘90 and goes through February 1991. It is a coalition war, so it's 35 nations led by the United States, Britain is one of those nations, reacting to Iraq invading Kuwait, and then annexing Kuwait. It's important to keep this in mind because when you have a national moment like that, I mean really an international moment like that, the behaviour of your most prominent citizens matters. And so, it's against the Gulf War backdrop where people start going, you know what guys? Andrew, Edward, pretty much the entire younger generation, Fergie, you don't behave very well, do you? They're starting to be seen as indulging in luxurious activities at a time of war and in 1990, and then in 1991, the Sunday Times runs two polls and you can tell in that time, when the Gulf War is happening, there's a drastic decline in the figures. You know, pretty much 95% of the nation's like, yep, there'll be a monarchy in 10 years. Cut to 1991, the wars happened, people are now really saying ‘value for money’. If we are going to support these folks, they have gotta step up and that's just within a year, you know? 

Edith Bowman: Wow. 

Annie Sulzberger: That is unexpected. So ‘value for money’ is the most important thing to keep in your head for this entire season. And that stems as well from the Civil List which I know is something that comes up in episode 1. Thatcher in 1990, just before she leaves makes this big Civil List commitment of 10 years gives 'em 80 million dollars or 80 million pounds, excuse me. And it accounts for this massive rate of inflation which will never happen, which just pisses people off because they're like, you're giving them the sweetest deal possible. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah, what about us?

Annie Sulzberger: And it locks them in. And then the government refuses to allow scrutiny of the finances. So, by the early nineties, people are pretty pissed off with that deal, and the Gulf War does not aid them in any way whatsoever. And then you get into Annus Horribilis which caps off all of the value for money discussion.

Edith Bowman: Queen Victoria Syndrome…was Elizabeth really compared to Queen Victoria in the press?

Annie Sulzberger: Yes she was. Queen Victoria was the longest reigning Monarch in England, up until Queen Elizabeth II. She bears a lot of similarities. They both were not intended to inherit the throne and they had very good reputations early on.

They were kind of youthful and committed and yet they were quite glamorous. And, but when Victoria became widowed quite young, she was about 40, she retreated from public life. I mean, she actually said something like ‘my life is over’ and she wouldn't even go to privy council meetings, she wouldn't go to her family's weddings.

And at that point, the public was very accepting of the loss. She was wholeheartedly in love with Albert, but after a while, they're like, what are we paying you for? Because you don't show up to anything? So much later in her reign, people have really dismissed her. 

So, by this point for Elizabeth, they're feeling she, maybe she's a little out of touch. They're certainly not saying she's retreated from public life, not at all, but they are starting to pick up on other similarities. And the Queen Victoria syndrome, it’s a concept that we believe originated with her courtiers, and it’s defined sort of in two ways by two different royal authors. One is just like a long reigning monarch, out of touch with their people, that’s a very simple way of putting it. What this courtier clarified it to mean was ‘whereby a fickle public could become tired of an ageing Monarch and a parasitic Royal family, seemingly divorced from reality’. So, the important thing to consider here is it's not just her, it's the position of the Royal Family.

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Annie Sulzberger: And she's starting to become tainted by the misdemeanours of her kids because she's not stepping in.

Edith Bowman: This season, we were introduced to John Major, who was the Prime Minister from 1991 to 1997. And for me, he is one of the standout characters in this season played by the amazing Johnny Lee Miller. What can you tell us about Major and his background? 

Annie Sulzberger: John Major is a perfect example of like the joys of this job, because, when I grew up, I saw this 'Spitting Image' version of him, the, you know, kind of wooden old grey haired man, utterly uncharismatic depiction of him. And learning more about him has just been incredibly eye-opening. So, he's, he's gotta be the Prime Minister with the most interaction with the real Britain, I think in his past.

So, his dad was a circus performer and he was very old when John was born, so he had retired by then and he owned a garden ornament company.

Edith Bowman: What, like gnomes? 

Annie Sulzberger: Yeah, exactly, exactly gnomes. And, uh, that started to fail a bit after the war and they ended up moving to a two room, tenement flat in Brixton for five people.

And in that house, he shared all the facilities like loos, kitchens with all the other people who lived in the house. And that was people from every different walk of life. And he's a very clever kid so he gets into a very good secondary school, but it's a long way away. He leaves at 16 with only three O levels, I think, does not go to university, he talks about it as being one of the most shameful moments of his life. 

So he decides I'm gonna better myself though. I'm not going to just get stuck here, but he's the first Prime Minister I imagine who's ever been on the dole. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Annie Sulzberger: He applied to be a bus conductor, didn't get it. He worked mixing cement. He worked at the garden furniture and ornament place that his dad and brother worked at. He ends up finally getting a job at a bank and then that's when things start to turn around. And all the while, he's doing correspondence courses at night, he's participating in local politics, he joins Lambeth Council for Housing and his, his dad was Conservative, so he sort of, he joins the Conservatives as well. And he is very much in the, in the small C I think conservative of like, he just believes hard work, pays off. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Annie Sulzberger: You can get there and I'm gonna show you how to do that. And I want to make things easier for you to get there.

Edith Bowman: Wow. I didn't know any of that about him.

Annie Sulzberger: I know it's amazing. 

Edith Bowman: Was he a royalist or monarchist? 

Annie Sulzberger: Definitely a monarchist. He believes that this country is better off for it, is more stable, that there's something we can unite around. And he believes that it is his job as leader of the democracy of Britain to ensure the stability of that monarchy, because if that authority erodes, so does the authority of the government. And that's one of the reasons he takes such an interest, and he becomes such a guiding hand in this time for Elizabeth and for Charles and Diana, because he believes the behaviour of the younger Royals is chipping away at the respect for authority figures.

He does not want that authority to be in question just because of bad behaviour in this other sphere of power.

Edith Bowman:  So earlier I mentioned that we’ve got a new feature on the podcast. Now we know, like me, that you love finding out all those amazing historical details that go into ‘The Crown’. Therefore, we’re going to hear even more from the show’s research department. In each episode, I’m going to ask Annie the questions you’ve been dying to know more about.

Think of this as your research engine, get it? Nope? Okay. We'll work on the title. We'll have some longer chats across this season, just like the one we've had, but to kick off these quick questions, Annie, I've gotta ask after watching episode one, what is the Ghillies Ball?

Annie Sulzberger: The Ghilles Ball has been going more or less since Queen Victoria purchased the house of Balmoral, the castle in the mid 19th century. And it's a dance every September, it's a ceilidh, so it's a Scottish dance. It's the best form of dancing, I have to say, I've become completely obsessed with ceilidhs since I moved to this country.

And it's to thank the Royal gamekeepers, the household servants, and even people from the surrounding estates as the Royals end their time in Balmoral which is usually August and September. 

We mentioned in the episode, the phrase ‘Saturnalia’, I think Margaret mentions it to John Major and that parallel seems to have started when the widowed Victoria started her somewhat intimate relationship with John Brown. And when they were at the Ghilles Ball, they were rather familiar with one another when they were dancing. So the idea is that a Saturnalia is where societal rules are turned upside down for the day and the role reversals occur, and there's a bit more behavioural licence. So they're sort of saying, ‘we dance with everybody’. So, Queen Mother will ask a footman to dance with her, she's been rejected more than once. There's some hard drinking amongst the staff that really let loose. And the younger Royals usually party till about 2:00 AM. Elizabeth and Philip will back away and say, go nuts. And the younger Royals are left to it with, with the staff.

Princess Margaret: I was just telling the Prime Minister that these things can get quite giddy.

Queen: Not that I ever witnessed any of it. I'm afraid, the real fun only starts when I go to bed. Can I count on you for a full report in the morning? 

John Major: You can your Majesty.. Goodnight.

Queen: Shall we slip away?

Footman: Her Majesty, The Queen.

Edith Bowman: Imelda you're amazing in this. You really, really are. I just wanna say congratulations to start with. 

Imelda Staunton: Thank you. Thanks. 

Edith Bowman: Do you mind if I ask how Peter asked you? ‘Cause I know that he says that he's had you for this part of this whole story in his mind for a long time.

Imelda Staunton: I was asked to go to his house, in June 2019, on something like June the 11th at about 11 o'clock. 

Edith Bowman: Brunch?

Imelda Staunton: So I go there and he opens the door goes, "Oh, hi, hi, sorry. There's been lots of people here." And I thought, well, of course there have, cause you're seeing all these people to play the Queen. So he made me a very fine coffee and we went upstairs and then he said, "so we want you on board and that's it" and I think I said, "are you sure?"

And then he said, "do you wanna watch some of what we've done?" And I said, "yes, absolutely. Absolutely." As if that was gonna make things any easier... Let's watch all the other people do it. 

Edith Bowman: Just what you need.

Imelda Staunton: Just what you need. 

Edith Bowman: But I think what's great about this show. It's all their own voices. It's all different. Dominic's Charles is different to Josh's Charles. It's a different period of the story. It's a different time in their life.

Imelda Staunton: All you try to get is an essence. Because, you know, we'll go, well, ‘I don't look anything like’ you go right. Get rid of that. Oh, ‘I don't sound anything’, get rid of that.

But the added weight, again, is if we need it anymore, were not only the original people who we are trying to portray, but then everyone else who has portrayed them before. So, you have to sort of go through that and accept it and look at it and fear for your life. And then that goes away, and you just go forward.

And also, no doubt about it, you are served with such good writing. So, that is most of your work done for you. And I think for me, what I found incredibly moving are my costumes.

Edith Bowman: Amy and Sid.

Imelda Staunton: I have to say, I have found that really, really moving because the care and the love and the precision and all that. And of course, there's something about this real woman, this Queen, and how they want it to be so right for her. And it has also made it very hard for me to go to any shop and look at any clothes and go, well, that's not made right, is it? That's not made at all properly. So that that's interesting, but I have found that very moving because of course everything I wear is handmade. She never wears the same thing twice, but I think the work that's gone into that, just shows what this is all about. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Imelda Staunton: And what probably the Queen is about, is you don't do it unless it's right. And you don't do it unless you've worked hard at it. And they work really hard. You're just being enabled all the time to serve it up.

Edith Bowman: They're such an amazing team here, from my experience of, of having the luxury of chatting to all these wonderful craftsmen and women in all these amazing departments, be it props or hair and make-up, set design. I mean, we're in Kensington Palace. It's bonkers. There's so much care and love put into it. 

Imelda Staunton: There is care and love, but also the crew have worked so hard in their mask’s month in and month out.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Imelda Staunton: That's been really hard for them. So let's not forget how difficult it has also been, and for the production company, keeping people safe. So, add that onto something that's already challenging, you know? And I think everyone did absolutely remarkably well.

Edith Bowman: How did it feel when you came on set for the first day? Because everything is so real. Even when you walk around the lot and there's a bit of Buckingham Palace, there's a bit of Downing Street. There's so much reality here. 

Imelda Staunton: Yes. It doesn't feel like a set.

Edith Bowman: No. Not at all. 

Imelda Staunton: So that's job done, isn't it? 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Imelda Staunton: And also we're not dealing with just a nice ordinary kitchen, are we? We're dealing with high end, real life. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Imelda Staunton: Martin Childs who designed it, I first worked with him in 1985. He was the assistant on 'The Singing Detective', Dennis Potter's 'Singing Detective'. 

Edith Bowman: No! 

Imelda Staunton: Yeah. So you know, now he's running the show and he's been given the right money to do the job the best he can. We've all done a lot of, ‘well, let's just make, it'll make, do, it'll do, it'll do’, and you've always done your best, but then to just be given that little bit extra to do it really well.

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Imelda Staunton: Is really good. And I haven't been here before, so this is quite interesting. 

Edith Bowman: Welcome to my drawing room.

Imelda Staunton: Thank you.

Edith Bowman: I’d quite like to live here.

Imelda Staunton: Yes. 

Edith Bowman: Erm, I was saying to you, I've been lucky enough to see a couple of episodes and it's wonderful to watch you and Leslie together. And I know you've known each other for a long time, and Leslie was talking about where you thankfully both knew quite close to each other, that you were gonna be playing these roles, so you didn't have to keep secrets from each other. But that must have been a wonderful and exciting opportunity. 

Imelda Staunton: Yeah, Really nice with Leslie and with Jonathan, you know, and with Dom, I've worked with them all, and so there's a great ease there. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Imelda Staunton: That's riches really. And for Leslie and I, it's a lovely opportunity to do proper stuff together, because we usually talk about cakes and stuff in between. 

Edith Bowman: That's what Jonathan said. He's like, we don't talk about the scene or where they are or...

Imelda Staunton: Well, you don't because if it's written that well, there, ain't nothing to talk about, but just do it and with every single scene you think. "Well, thank you. Thanks for that. Thank you" 

Edith Bowman: The way that Peter writes, it's so captivating and brilliant that you believe everything. That's down to his writing, the performance, all those wonderful collaborations within each show and episode. It's a fine line finding that line of the performance. 

Imelda Staunton: Yes, it is.

Edith Bowman: Of her.

Imelda Staunton: It really is. Of all of us, you know? 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Imelda Staunton: To try and do that.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Imelda Staunton: I'd like to say it was down to me, but I actually think it is completely down to Peter Morgan because he creates the line. He's creating all of it. 

Edith Bowman: You're the tightrope walker.

Imelda Staunton: Yes, I am. Thank you. Yes, I am. That's very good. Thank you. I'll use that.

Edith Bowman: You can have that one.

Imelda Staunton: Thank you. 

Edith Bowman: On that day, you went around to Peter's house. Did he give you any scripts to read?

Imelda Staunton: No. No.

Edith Bowman: That's a good sign. You're saying yep, before you even read a script.

Imelda Staunton: You know, you're asked to play the Queen. You're not gonna say, ‘well, hang on a second. What does she actually do?’ Uh, no, of course it was a huge honour to be asked and, you know, you always think, oh God, are you sure? I'm sure I'm the right person? But of course, there must have been a bit of me that felt, yeah, I think I can give this a good shot. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Imelda Staunton: And it was quite interesting, you know, ‘cause I'd never met him or anything, so it's not like, oh, I've known over for years.

Edith Bowman: Had you not?

Imelda Staunton: Oh no, not at all. So, um...

Edith Bowman: That's lovely though, to think, is it not, That he had already kind of placed you in his mind as her?

Imelda Staunton: Who's a little short grey haired? Who's that old? Who's that actress who’s really…

Edith Bowman: That looks fabulous in Tweed. 

Imelda Staunton: Yeah. Yeah.

Edith Bowman: What's been your most memorable moment on this so far, do you think? 

Imelda Staunton: Two things actually. I got to walk on a big beach somewhere that was rather extraordinary. And then in episode four, ‘Annus Horribilis’, I got to walk up a beautiful staircase into the most extraordinary banqueting hall and that felt like I was in 'The Crown'. But those are just images. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Imelda Staunton: Every scene has a, a rich moment within it. And the scenes where you have got more than just a few lines where you've got a real scene to get into is difficult, it's satisfying, it's demanding. It's not something you go, ‘oh, this is fun.’ No, it's not fun. God almighty, it’s so hard!

Edith Bowman: It's hard work,

Imelda Staunton: It's so hard, which is good. That's not a bad thing. Work being difficult is not a bad thing. So there wasn't any moment I thought, ‘oh, that's lovely. I'm just doing this now’. No, raise the bar, raise it higher, raise it higher all the time. And you know, I do that to myself, but also the writing demands that you do that. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Imelda Staunton: And hopefully the directors push you up there, get you onto that tightrope. And also something that I've never done before is where you also have five different directors. So that was new for me. And each one just got better, and I thought, well, this is great, actually.

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Imelda Staunton: I thought it would be very hard, but then also I'm playing a character, as we all are. We're playing characters who live in their own little box and whatever shape that box is. So it's not like I could go, well, what can I do with this Queen? 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Imelda Staunton: What can I do with this? There's a line I have to tread. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Imelda Staunton: And you just want a director to just within that, give you some space, or take away some of your air. And they all did that. And that was really nice to have a slight different colour. And I dunno how they do it because as I said, we can't…

Edith Bowman:  Yeah. You can't tell, watching it. 

Imelda Staunton: No, you can't, as I said, put your take on it or their take on it.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Imelda Staunton: So, um, it was sort of seamless.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. It's such an interesting thing because it's about a family, it’s about this incredible woman.

Imelda Staunton: Yeah.

Edith Bowman: And I admire her greatly.

Imelda Staunton: Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: And I think that, as Peter's always said to us, when we've been lucky enough to, to chat to him, is that everything always comes back to her. She's the beating heart of all of it. 

Imelda Staunton: And I think that will be gone, because if you think, you know, she had a connection to Queen Mary and that generation of people who did not question, I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but they just didn't.

And no one said, "I'm tired. Well, I can't do this". And I think for the Queen, not being too flippant about it, but you know, her whole life has been a press junket. Her whole life. 

Edith Bowman:Yeah. 

Imelda Staunton: And no one has done it better. 

Edith Bowman: Do you feel like you understood her life a bit more from this part? 

Imelda Staunton: Mm. And I understand that her faith is in  a lot to do with her resilience and her stoicism. I think it's obviously given her enormous support and strength and serenity. One sort of learns from that and takes a little bit from that because you, you know, part of you goes, ,I don't know how she does it,. And then of course, you know, people might say, ‘well, it's an easy life’. I don't really think it's in any way easy, but it's just her life, and I don't think she questions it. 

And I think one of the main reasons that people seem to love the Queen is that she has always just been herself. And the Queen just knew she had a job to do, and actually that was the most important thing. And I think she realised how, in many respects, how lucky she was to have Philip who was prepared to stand behind the woman.

And he did that because he also understood duty and, it's interesting, isn't it? We think they're old-fashioned things about, you know, duty and you turn up on time, you're not late. You don't do - but actually that's why people love those sort of people because they're always gonna be there. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Imelda Staunton: And do the right thing.

Edith Bowman: I'm Edith Bowman and my special thanks to our wonderful guests on this episode, Peter Morgan, Annie Sulzberger, Jessica Hobbs, and Imelda Stanton.

'The Crown: The Official Podcast' is produced by Netflix and Somethin' Else in association with Left Bank Pictures. 

Join us next time, when we go behind the scenes of episode two of season five called 'The System'. Prince Philip looks to new friendships, to find fulfilment within the Royal system, Princess Diana makes a decision that could break it all together.