The Crown: The Official Podcast

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Prime Minister ma’am

W: as of an hour ago, the loss of life in Aberfan stands at 116. Now it appears over 80 are still missing. 36 of these survivors have been hospitalised. 

Q: I see. Are any more victims expected to be found?

W: Not alive ma’am. To make matters worse it has been reported that the North shoulder of Tip 7 has moved and the village is ready for immediate evacuation. Mechanical diggers are out of action bogged down in the soggy mud. The military have been brought in to help.

Now, given all this, I was hoping I might persuade you to go.

Q: One of the most unfortunate things about being sovereign I have discovered, is that you paralyze virtually any situation you walk into. The very last thing emergency and rescue services need when they are working against the clock is a Queen turning up.

W: I am not sure I agree. Children have died. A community is devastated.

Q: What precisely would you have me do?

W: Comfort people.

Q: Put on a show? The Crown doesn’t do that.

W: I didn’t say put on a show. I said comfort people.

Series intro

Welcome to the Crown: The Official Podcast. I'm Edith Bowman and on this show will follow the third season of the Netflix original series The Crown episode by episode, taking you behind the scenes, speaking with many of the talented people involved, and diving deep into the stories. 

Episode intro

Today we're talking about Episode Three, titled Aberfan.  On the 21st of October 1966, a devastating tragedy befell the Welsh mining village Aberfan, claiming the lives of 116 children and 28 adults.  As the children and their teachers began their day in the classroom, an avalanche of pit waste slid down the mountainside from the nearby coal tip, engulfing Pantglas Junior School within a matter of minutes. If you haven't watched the episode yet, as you'd expect with such a tragic subject matter, it’s a very emotional experience, but a story that the team behind the Crown felt strongly that they wanted to tell.

Edith – pick up

Coming up later, we will hear from head of research Annie Sulzberger, who will provide a detailed description of the tragedy, and the events that followed.

Edith – pick up

We will also hear from lead director and executive producer Ben Caron on the production and personal challenges involved in filming the episode

Edith – pick up

But first I spoke with BAFTA award winning actor Jason Watkins about taking on the role of former prime minister Harold Wilson.

Edith and Jason introduction

E: Jason Watkins. Hello, sir. How are you? 

J: Very good.  Hello.

What is the attraction to doing The Crown?

E: We spoke to Peter and he was very adamant. He was like, he knew he wanted you knew you had your mind for this role?

J: Well, gosh, I mean, yeah. It's such an exciting series, having been a fan of it. And then to be considered. I've got a friend who's an architect. Yeah. And when they when they pitch for jobs, they have to do months of work and then turn up and then they might not get it and that's part of that. And I said, Well, you know,

E: same as me, mate.

J: I'm so determined to get this part. Yeah, that really was I did a lot of research. I got my impersonation together. I did all those things and arrived with very prepared and I think I'd obviously worked with Peter before and you know, when he considered me to be part of it. There's a great sort of vote of confidence in that so it was an incredibly exciting prospect.

E: that's really interesting that you'd done a lot of research even before you got the part in terms of finding your Harold Wilson

J: The nerve racking processes yeah screen test and so I thought well, I need to be fueled by the person that I'm playing and really trying to know him and just well, I don't get it. Forget it, you know, yeah. Which has happened of course in other projects where it doesn't quite work out.

Where did you begin, researching  for Harold?

E: Where do you start then when you're researching. Where did you, where did you begin for Harold?

J: Well, there's the obvious impersonator things, the accent in a ways is a very unusual accent it's almost posh you know in many ways. So there are certain key sounds that you hold on to where you look where he's from, you know he’s originally from Middlesfield, and then he moved to the Wirral. So there's he retains sounds. And then he went to Oxford and so his accent was flattened out and of course at the time, everybody's speaking like the Queen’s english. So everything was. So he's got an element of that. So it's a strange mix in terms of the his accent, but then you try and work out how his brain works really, I was trying, what's the rhythm of his brain how did the thoughts come into his head, a different character very different and you're trying to project from the outside in, what's coming out to you. 

Politics then and now 

J: And so he was just a fascinating man, the history of him and his upbringing and, and, you know, it'd be very easy to talk about contemporary politics now wouldn’t it? You could crack on what are the similarities between Harold Wilson and you know, what is going on now in the birth of Europe? You know, Edward Heath, a Tory at the time, he was he was a champion of Europe. Yes, this is strange. There are cyclical elements to it, but for me, it was trying to work out. You know, I think politicians go into politics to make the world a better place. In whatever their view of what that better place is. 

E: Yeah. 

J: I think Howard Wilson was a man of principle. Yeah. He's had a religious upbringing as well, and was a scout, he liked rules and wanted to make the world a better place, I mean his father was made redundant. He worked in dying a dying factory and then in munitions.  And when he was made redundant, I think that really stuck with Howard Wilson, that was something that really and he didn't want that to happen. And he saw the damage that it did to his father and his world and to other people. So I think that that certainly stayed with him. So, you know, he was he did set out to become to make the world a better place. So I mean, I was trying to think, where does that sit? Yeah. And at the same time, he was a royalist. 

So which I think is surprising to many people. Oh he’s just like this rather boring socialist.  But he wasn't, he was a modernist. And although he was grey and retund he was quite dynamic almost I would like to say sexy. I haven't said that people have said that about Wilson and about my portrayal.

E: Well, he was successful in certain areas of life. So

J: what he was doing, that’s another story

E: Was there much there for you to dive into with regards to his relationship with the queen. Was there much documented about that was a much to sort out find on that?

J: Yes. I mean, Oh, I know that they got on. He liked to talk. They like to gossip a bit. I think people were surprised to think, know that he was a royalist. And what he disliked intensely was the he didn't distrust privilege. He hated despised the misuse of it. Yeah. And I think that was the thing one of the things that really drove him and the sense of duty that the Queen has as a remit, he connected with and understood and I think they had a relationship that was about service which which is which is mentioned it throughout the series and hinted at in scenes between them.

Specifically, I mean that those are the key things for me.

E: Can you remember the first scene you filmed?

J: Well, I remember the first key scene with Olivia. Yeah, in this place up in Potters Bar. Yeah. I mean, of course I've done shows before you you know you were a fan and then you end up in me and quite a lot of that. But this was on a slightly bigger scale 

E: Were you absolutely fan-boyin’ out?  And you were kind of like,

J: Yeah, yeah, I mean I was, I was also slightly terrified you know, I’ve got my gear on, got my wig on in it took about an hour over an hour and a half to get the wig on and get into character and find the physicality and yeah, and I suppose as I said earlier about being an architect, you know, sort of pitching, but I thought this is where it's going to count all that stuff in my bedroom is actually no one's seen any of that. They need to this is where we are going to see it. But you have to, you know, you have to play the scene, make sure you. And you can only use as much of the information that you know, we've talked about now a little bit about the research, you really it's all apposite to what you're doing in that room with that other person. And so, you know, you kind of forget about that in a way and make sure you play the scene and the changes in the scenes and . 

J: Ben Caron, the director is brilliant. He has this the night before. He'll send you some notes that come through on email and just reminding you of, and new things as well, about you know about the dynamics of their first meeting and that he was, you know, he was slightly nervous little overawed slightly, so that was easy to play. And it also, you know, determined and wanting to bond and, you know, so all these little ingredients that were thrown in just before doing it. So you know, it kept it fresh and he did that every time every day before a particular scene. 

J: And I know Olivia I worked with her before. But she was obviously brilliant, just brilliant on the set. She's just so incredibly brave and positive and brilliant. 

E: Yeah. 

J: And that helps. 

E: And naughty sometimes…. 

J: Yeah, I mean, he's, I'm sure other people will tell you. Oh, yeah. I tend to get a bit sort of serious and, you know, try and stay in my little bubble. I've worked with other actors. I mean, stellan skarsgård who I work with, he just sort of paces around, keeps himself. He's like a caged animal, keeps his brain going. And I'm a bit like that in a sort of more sedentary way. But it's nice to have. I think that's why Olivia one of her reasons for her success is that she's very good at keeping her spirit. And you see her spirit on the screen. Yeah. And across all her work. you know, she's got this incredible intelligence and lightness of spirit. Yes, which has carried her such a long way.

E:And let's move on to Episode Three. Aberfan, which, obviously, a real historical event, but with it comes an element of, I guess, creative licence to tell it in the Crown's way, but being true and very respectful of the victims, the families, the community, erm but Wilson was very central to to that storyline. And I just wanted to talk a little bit about about that and approaching that and how you how you prepared for that really in that specific episode.

J: Well I don’t know how much we can talk about this but I mean, people do know that my life story is that we have lost a child…me and my wife and I think so….and I always knew that there was going to be an episode like this, and I was going to have to try and deal with it. And in a way make sure that I was playing Wilson and not me, you know, because it was going to be a hugely emotional journey. So kind of having seen it now. It's like a gift actually, because it's so brilliantly done. And I think to all bereaved parents, it is an extraordinary thing that a such a sensitive portrayal and valuing, so valuing the loss of those lives, the 116 children.

J: But of course, you know, the coal board. It's interesting because when Wilson comes to Skelmersdale, he finds out about it and it's a sort of echo of you know, George Bush being told in the primary school about 911 …but he's completely on it, he gets the you know, he asks for the plane and…goes down there and it's on that which is in the in the episodes on that, that he knows the amount of slurry that has come down the hill and…that was his first job in war time he was taken in by the civil service and user civil servant and he worked in the ministry of power so he knew about quantities and he was An economist, a brilliant economist. I mean, that's worth saying and it's a tangent slightly but you know, he got the highest marks possible it is it is College in Oxford, and he was always the sharpest knife in the drawer in a in a room when it came to economics, which I think is a surprising, but so on that plane, you know, he realised the amount of damage that was caused. Yeah. So he was he knew what he was going into, to see…

W: How much coal was in this tip?

Too much! 300,000 cubic yards. Plus guidelines suggest that tips should be no higher than 20 feet tall. Now this one was over 5 times that!

W: Who from the coal board is there?

The local supervisor Eric Ellis

W: We’re gonna need someone higher up that that! What about Lord Roven, he’s head of the coal board?

A: He was notified, but he’s being invested as Chancellor of Surrey university today and thought no reason to postpone the investiture

W: What? Make sure he’s there by tomorrow morning will you!

A: Yes Sir

W: We’ll have to be very careful. This could turn nasty very quickly!

A: Come on Harold. This an accident caused by unprecedented rainfall. It isn’t political.

W: everything is political Andrew

E: that the scene where he he allows himself a moment to privately reflect and react to what he's witnessed, you know, after he's been there and stuff is, I mean, I kind of I almost stopped me breathing kind of thing is so it’s so poignant and I think that that's what's wonderful about the, you know, Peter and the team deciding to use this as a as a subject for an episode for this, which is a brave thing to do, but I think a necessary thing to do. Because it's I didn't know anything about it. Yeah, my Mum and Dad did, I’ve spoken to them they talked about it too, you know, just kind of remind people about 

J: Well, I hope that that and that will happen. I know it will, because it's such a moving episode. And one’s hope is that the people of Wales, the whole of Wales and particularly of Aberfan, hope they feel comforted by a whole nation and you know… that the whole world is in sympathy with them and what they suffered and what they endured. So that that is a, you know, I feel that episode is a little gift for me and my family. So, I hope that in a way that it's a gift to the town and to and also, I was going on to say that you know, that there were mistakes made and that Wilson was responsible ultimately for, for the Coal board. Now the Coal board. They they made mistakes, the there was this stream flowing underneath which, there was an extraordinary confluence of circumstances which could not possibly have been foreseen. But then some people did feel it was and they should have been doing something about this. It's a very complicated politically and that is explored as well. Yeah, he's like the uncomfortableness that he feels about that.

E: And one of the things I think that’s, you know, this, this idea of, of The Queen, her kind of, public and private person that she is, and it's, you know, and that's explored through her reaction to this absolute tragedy and how she deals with it when she deals with it, and the way that she should publicly deal with it. And Wilson is very much at the centre of that story in terms of helping her negotiate that as well in a way.

J: Yes, and I think if you look at the first series, and you look at Churchill's paternal view on her, and you wouldn't imagine that Wilson would occupy a similar space, but he does in some degree, and he as an advisor, he advises hers that kicks in in this episode that he he advises her on what she should do and I think she's probably stunned I think like most people on didn't know what to do what should one do? How do we, how do I play this, and also having experienced himself having been there the weight of feeling and the emotion and the necessity for some kind of royal guidance and acknowledgement of what that of the suffering so he's you know he makes one or two rather good decisions I think and he's very sensitive in the way he helps her and then in the end of it where there’s this gloves off kind of honesty about how he has portrayed himself to the media and insert you know the wild salmon to tinned salmon, cigars and I've done all that research.

E: I gasped when I heard the cigar line. 

J: Yes, I don’t like pipe smoking, I prefer cigars and you know there is this element of persona about it. And that saying that real emotion is maybe not apposite to what had happened in Aberfan although she isn't a hugely emotional person that a bit of reserve is not necessarily a bad thing. So, yeah, he was able to advise on that. And, and, he is a pragmatist. He's a realist. And he felt that, you know, that was good advice. Okay. This is one massive spoiler, isn't it? 

E: We're hoping people have watched it. Yeah.

Joining us again is Annie Salzburger, head of The Crown research department.

As you’ll have heard in episode two, The Crown research dept has a significant role to play in shaping the episodes.  In this instance, the importance of being balanced, sensitive and historially insightful were particular challenges. 

Wales – where it is, what it is

E: You know, this show is a huge international success. And there will be people around the world who don't know where Wales is, or what Wales is. And I think that that's another important thread throughout this entire series actually, is Wales relationship with the Crown with the rest of the United Kingdom. It's a really clever way of talking about that.

A: Absolutely. So bare basics, I suppose. Wales is a country in its own right within Great Britain as a land Mass, beautiful country. Along with Scotland and England, they make up Great Britain. And then Northern Ireland rounds out the United Kingdom, Wales back in 1966. had about I think maybe two and a half million people versus England’s 41. So it's relatively smaller, it's much smaller in population. 

Coal was a major UK coal source

A: And the Welsh have really relied on coal as a serious industry for them. Coal use was starting to go on the decline by the 60s. So I think it had been about 90% of Britain's fuel source for I think, around in 1950. And and by 60, it's about 80. And by about 66, about 70%. And they've started to use diesel in trains and oil and natural gas to heat homes. So, things are starting to diversify, which means that Wales is really feeling the brunt of the death of the coal industry, particularly for its employment of its men and under Wilson And I mean, people will be very surprised to hear this. But under Wilson, there were far more coal pit closures than there were under Thatcher. And that was not due to strikes and and workers pay. And it was just due to the decline of the industry. 

E: It was a huge, like you say kind of became a problem that grew and grew as well, in terms of it going from it being, you know, a Welsh issue..

A: Yes!

E:so to speak to being a, national issue. 

A:Absolutely..

E: Very quickly…

Nothing has ever happened like this before the disaster or since

A: I think it's worth saying that before we really dive into the Aberfan event, that nothing like this had really ever happened before. And I don't think anything like this has happened since.  We have never researched anything like this. That is so…..it fills one with sadness that you actually can't quite grapple with, even I mean, I've been, I've spent two years on this subject, I still can't get over it.

What exactly happened on that morning

A: So what happened was on the day on the morning of October 21 1966, a tip, which is, it consists of the coal waste. So the coal’s dug out, there's a coalery in Aberfan and the coals dug out from the underground pit. And anything that is considered waste product of that coal is taken up and dumped on the top of the mountain, which you would think really inherently sounds a bit dangerous. Now, this tip was 111 feet high, when the maximum for any tip was supposed to be 20 feet high. What would also come out later is that it was built on a spring. Essentially, this village in Wales, in South Wales, in Aberfan, which had I believe, at that time, 5000 people, you know, most of whom worked in or knew someone related to someone who worked in that industry. Had an active volcano. Just waiting to erupt there. And it's visible. I mean, you look up in the green hills and then a very, very prominent black one. So on the morning of the 21st of October, it had been raining a few days before you add that into the stream, and you have lava, the tip just started to with massive force come rolling down, and it rolled over Penglas Junior School, pretty much instantly killing a large percentage of the children within it. It also took out some houses on the way, it killed teachers. In the end, there was 116 children dead and 28 adults dead. And it happened within I think 30 seconds. It came in, just like a tsunami. And when you look at the pictures of the devastation to the school, the impact must have literally been I don't think there's anything else You could you could liken it to other than the tsunami.

And they managed to pull some children free but most of the children it happened so fast that most of the children either suffocated or died of injuries. But I think suffocation was primarily the, the number one cause of death. And what you had after that was just this frantic digging operation because they couldn't bring in mechanical diggers in case the weight of those diggers crushed the children who were alive. So you just had to dig with your hands or whatever was light enough that you knew wouldn't do any harm to what was underneath.

People want to blame someone, responsibility of National Coal Board

A: You said earlier that within the the episode, there's these people who have had this indescribable loss, they want blame. They want someone they want something to blame for it. And you said that the research that you've done, it was avoidable, 

A: Completely avoidable. Yeah. So in 63, they had written to the national Coal board which had been nationalised, so it's essentially like writing to the government and said, we've seen the tip slide, there's been a slight movement in there, this is incredibly dangerous. And it's right that the junior schools in the path, can we please get rid of this tip and nobody did anything about it. And you know, it was five times the maximum height and it was built on a spring. There were obvious dangers to this tip. And with the national Coal Board there is a very serious tribunal that takes place afterwards, it was longest tribunal in British history, there were about 130 witnesses or so were called. And in the end, blame was squarely placed at the feet of the National Coal Board.

We have Geoffrey Morgan from the National Coal Board and George Thomas, Minister of State for Wales here to answer our questions.

Member of public: Will you both accept responsibility?!

The National Coal Board cannot accept responsibility for the weather! 

Abnormal levels of rainfall have created extraordinary conditions! 

You’ve known about the spring under the tip for years! I voted for you!

So did I!

You’ve caused this, not rainfall!

And nothing was done! 

Buried alive by the national coal board! That’s what I wanna see written on my childs death certificate 

Tribunal after the event

A: They didn't actually pay any criminal liability to them. So no one got fired. No one was named as like a culprit to a certain extent, no one had to actually pay for any of these crimes. It was I think they use this incredible phrase that you just cannot believe was allowed. Well, first of all that the corner returned blanket verdict of accidental death. And that was what established the no criminal liability. But the tribunal outcome stated that the culpability was not of wickedness but of ignorance and ineptitude. Okay. Wow. So in the end, just to just to make matters even worse, they still wouldn't remove the remaining tip, which posed. Yeah, it could have collapsed a second time.

Dipping into the charity fund to pay for removal

A: So in order to get it removed Two years later, two years, the government dipped into the Aberfan Disaster Relief Fund, which had been set up to to help the families and support the town to the tune of 150,000 pounds to help reach the amount of money that it would be needed to clear the tip completely. And the collapsed tip which was tip no.7 was one of a few that were still around the hillsides of Aberfan so this money was used to clear not just the one that had fallen but all of the rest that were overshadowing the town. And that money was not repaid until Tony Blair's government and they did not account for inflation. So they got 150 grand back but it should have been about over a million 

E: That’s disgusting. Oh my God. 

A: Yeah

E: oh my god that makes me so angry.

The people who remained

A: And their children, you know, they may have lost two out of four so everyone was emotionally scarred.  They were scarred, the surviving children have survivor’s guilt, the fathers who worked in the coal pits had extreme guilt that they had caused this thing in some way.  This was back in a time when no one had any capacity to work through this with them.   The children who died there were called the lost generation and the people who remained would never get out of the shadow of just this extreme that, you know, Death had hit their home in such an savage way that Yeah. Okay, I can’t even finish the sentence sorry. When we were writing this. It was back around June 2017, when the Grenfell Tower fire happened and it’s just shocking that this sort of thing, obviously there were some differences to what happened in Aberfan, but it was sort of hitting the public again with such massive loss of life, it felt incredibly avoidable, um and that event, I think confirmed to us why it was so important to tell this story. It had such parallels with it and I think for the country to understand that something with that level of national mourning had happened before and actually in pretty recent history, made it really important for us to get the story out.

How our Queen reacted to it

E: And the and the interesting other side of the episode is the way that that our queen reacts to it and you know you mentioned that British stiff upper lip culture and it's a really interesting exploration about her public persona, her private persona, how she is expected to react and behave. 

A: Absolutely. 

Clip

One of her biggest regrets was delaying her visit 

A: I mean, according to her deputy private secretary at the time, Martin Charteris, who said this well, after he left the royal household, one of her biggest regrets was delaying her visit. And, and it's that it's just such a fascinating question just when the entire I mean, the world was mourning. And what they needed was her physical presence to almost it validates that mourning to a certain extent. If the Queen's there commiserating for people, something really bad must have happened. 

E:Yeah.

Lead Director and Exectutive Producer Ben Caron joins us again, this time we discuss the creative process in approaching such an important event. 

Package: Ben Caron 

How did you a team decide to tackle Aberfan as a story

B : Aberfan was a significant event and one that we we wanted to tell in season three and probably, and one of the most preventable tragedies of the 20th century. I remember reading the scripts. And I think you would have to Peter about it but I’m pretty sure he wrote that in about a week. And it just poured out of him and I know there are certain scripts in the crown which he just locks himself in his little box and he just writes and it comes out and we hardly changed it.  So when you read you just felt that you we sort of had to remain truthful, authentic to those sort of events and those characters and to make sure that we showed the impact on the nation, the local community and the monarch – The Queen. So first of all, we were the producers.

We contacted the surviving community in Aberfan

First we paid our respects 

B: Well first of all, actually I went to pay my respects, I went to Aberfan, we went to the site where the disaster happened, which is now a  memorial, and then we went to the cemetery and that that was really traumatic, because you see the graveyards of 116 children, sort of parents all buried together and that and I, you know, I have a I have a young child I have a four year old and so, we we just sat there for ages and and and really just felt then in that and well actually just grieved really greived and and for this this horrendous tragedy

Then we had to figure out how to engineer the story

B: And then you know when you leave there you then you have to go into how am I going to make this film, and you have to sort of slightly put all those feelings on one side because you have to get into the, almost the engineering of it, how am I? Where am I going to film it? How are we going to recreate this? This this tip, how are we going to recreate the slide. And so you sort of get into the yeah, the kind of mechanics of what we know what are we going to film it wherever we found a town called Cwmaman in South Wales, which is about maybe, you know, not too far from Aberfan itself. There was a school that they had just left thaty they built a new school. So there was actually an empty school that looked similar to the one in real life in the shadow of a sort of hillside that, that we would have to sort of, you know, add accentuate to, but the, the sort of the geography of that town worked was very, you know, as I'm sure a lot of these small Welsh mining towns were very similar kind of planning. So that became our kind of central point to where we would start

Then we looked for a coal mine

B: And then it was a question if you're looking for a coal mine, you know, there's a few that are still exist, you know, that are almost museums now that you can go around so there's one called the Big Tip, which we used for the sort of cafeteria, you know, where the miners come back and then we had to find  a top of the coal tip, which again, was actually was a was a slurry tip, like an abandoned one. So we've got to get all the crew up there and, and recreate that sort of railway line that sort of you know, whre te coal slurry was dropped. And so some of that is real and some of that is some of it we have to do once again in VFX 

E: Yeah.

Casting, still a part of a lot of Welsh people’s lives 

B: And then casting was about sort of finding actors, Welsh actors, from the area and and I'm actually my Dad’s Welsh, so I spent a lot of my childhood going to South Wales to places near Abergavenny so it felt really personal and something I had to get right. Yeah, and talking to all these Welsh actors that came in, it's such a still a big part of their life.

Raising an awareness to what happened

B: And, and what you felt was that that actually they also gave you know permission for us to tell the story because it was about making sure that we raised an awareness to this tragedy, not just, to people under the age of 40 that definitely wouldn't know about it and and also to an international audience that that wouldn't know about it either. And, and of course, you just want to make sure you get it right.

Filming was emotional so was difficult to speak about 

B: We filmed for two weeks in South Wales and I would, most days I was, it was really emotional, to the point where I couldn't even actually, some days I can talk, I can look at the actors and talk to them in the eyes. I was really sad.  And so I'd have to turn my back and look away so that we can have a conversation about the scene.  When I walked into the chapel with all of the, you know, the bodies laid out it was, I mean, we know because we are creating real life 

Your own grief comes up

B: That was, by far, the hardest two weeks of my filming career, and it brings all sorts of emotions from your own life. And that's what we do as filmmakers, we sort of, you know, probably were not able to show them.

Also was a story about Elizabeth and Wilson

How key characters responded to the tragedy

B: You don't really know where it's going, you sort of see it through the eyes of Tony, you know, who was one of the first royal family to jump on the train, you know, he said, I’m Welsh, I have to go and and he turned up there with a shovel. And actually, I think when he turned up there he realised that, you know, he didn't want to get in the way. And so we do that story you know, we see him walk around Aberfan, and we see the effects on Margaret and the Queen Mum and, you know, we go there with Philip.

Took creative license in placing Tony there when we did 

B: There is a little bit of slightly conflating some, you know, certainly Philip we put him there at the funeral. He actually wasn't there at the funeral. It's really hard for us as filmmakers to show those elements the story without our characters there. So that's, that's probably the only one thing that we, he did go there twice, once on his own and once with the Queen but so that was one moment where we, you know, we took a bit of creative licence to put him there to observe that moment. So we sort of see it through those eyes. And then and then and then, you know, at the end, we see her visiting.

Incredible scene at the end with Queen and Wilson

Clip

Q:I have known for some time there is something wrong with me. 

W: Not wrong. 

Q: Deficient, then. How else would you describe it when something is missing?

W: these meetings are confidential yes? I have never done a manual days work in my life. Not one. I’m an academic. A priviledged oxford don. Not a worker. I don’t like beer. I prefer brandy. I prefer wild salmon to tinned salmon. Chateau Briand to steak and kidney pie. And I don’t like pipe smoking. I far prefer cigars. But cigars are a symbol of capitalist priviledge so I smoke a pipe on the campaign trail and on television. Makes me more approachable. Likeable. We can’t be everything to everyone and still be true to ourselves. We do what we have to do as leaders, that’s our job. Our job is to calm more crisis than we create. That’s our job and you do it very well indeed. 

Audiences between the Queen and Wilson and their relationships

E: One of the many things that I love about this series is in particular those audiences with her and Wilson and watching that relationship and that kind of trust and friendship develop.

B: I love that relationship, it sort of starts off and you're not quite sure where it's gonna go, and maybe they're not going to get on because they feel like they really are from completely two different sides of the track. And then they, you know, then they connect through I say, towards the end of episode two and then certainly by three, there's a real trust and revelation there about each each other in this private room, which is always to me is felt like it's the therapy room. You know, it's in the Sopranos, it's Tony Soprano and the therapist and I think, you know, how much do you reveal of your feelings? And how much is she expected to show her feelings? Do you? Do you want a queen that shows her emotions do you want her not to be in this this really difficult position she finds herself in.

E: Questioning her own place.  It’s amazing.

B: And I’m always wondering, if for 20 years, you've been in a position where you're not, you know, you're not expected or can't show emotion. Like, how does that actually affect your wiring? You know,

E: It's weird because she can't allow herself to react, how she would react when the way she would? The natural way that she would react would be to not show emotion.

B: Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? And it sort of goes back to that British stiff upper lip sort of thing and you know, We're repressed human beings, we're not allowed to show emotion, then we have to force it all down. But then, at some point, you just have sort of too many holes in your body and not enough fingers to put in and it just comes pouring out in other ways.

B: so and I think that's brilliant, you know that in this particular episode is that conflict and I think that, yeah, I love that conversation between her and Wilson. And I think that revelation of both of them about the truth of who they are and what it is what they are. And that's for me when I'm one of the kind of the key things about The Crown is what people are privately and then what they are publicly is so different. And that odd existence that we all have the public faces and private faces. And again, it all feels really very relatable.

E: I think you did an extraordinary job with Aberfan. It really is. Really beautiful episode. 

B: Thank you

I'm Edith Bowman and my special thanks to our guests on this episode, Jason Watkins, Annie Salzburger and Ben Caron. This is produced by Netflix and Somethin Else in association with Left Bank pictures. 

Join us next time when we go behind the scenes of Episode Four, titled Bubbikins.   In this episode, Prince Philip’s complicated relationship with his mother, Princess Alice, emerges when she is suddenly brought to live in Buckingham Palace after being rescued from a convent in militarised Athens.

Episode Four tease clip

Q: As you know, Athens is in the throws of a military coups

P: Yes

Q: The foreign office view is that we should send a plane to bring your mother to England to live here with us. 

P: here?

Q: Yes. Here. I’m sure you’ll agree there’s room at the inn. 

P: but when?

Q: As soon as possible, tomorrow?

P: We can’t do that

Q: Why not?

P: Because if yoi hadn’t noticed we have cameras crawling about all over the place

Q: As it happens I had noticed.

P: Well we can’t afford to have my mother jeopardise this film, you know what she’s like!

Q: A little eccentric yes!

P: Well more than that. She’s not of our world, nor, frankly is she suited to it. She’s been in institutions most of her adult life. She’s not well. And with this film, appearances are vital, we need to be careful, very careful. The answer is no!

Q: Of course she should come, she’s 82 and if being mother to the Duke of Edinburgh, being mother in law to the Queen isn’t qualification enough, the fact that she’s grandmother to a future king is

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