The Crown: The Official Podcast

Newsreader: It's not often that Queen Elizabeth II let's the world know her innermost thoughts and feelings, but at a lunch today at The Guildhall to celebrate forty years on the throne she did precisely that.

Her voice still hoarse from smoke inhalation and labouring under the weight of a cold, she delivered an unprecedentedly frank expression of personal sadness and regret. The stark admission of failure and a horrible year for the Royal Family could be seen as a plea for sympathy and forgiveness after what can only be described as a turbulent 12 months.

But if it was public sympathy and forgiveness Her Majesty was hoping for, it might not be what she gets

Edith Bowman: Welcome to 'The Crown: The Official Podcast.' 

I'm Edith Bowman, and this is the show that follows the fifth season of the Netflix series, 'The Crown', episode by episode. We'll be taking you behind the scenes and speaking to many of the creatives involved and taking a deep dive into the stories.

Today, we’re going to be talking about episode four 'Annus Horribilis.'

In this episode, Princess Margaret has an unexpected letter from her former love, Peter Townsend. When they reunite after over 30 years, it brings back the heartbreak for Margaret and exposes the friction between her and Elizabeth, who didn’t allow her to marry him in the past.

Elizabeth is also dealing with problems in her children's love lives, with Prince Andrew asking for divorce, Prince Charles desperate to separate from Diana, and Princess Anne looking to marry a former palace equerry. And as the family disintegrates from within, a huge fire breaks out in Windsor Castle leading Elizabeth to call 1992 her ‘Annus Horribilis.’

We will cover specific events and scenes that feature in this episode, so if you haven't managed to watch episode four yet, I suggest you do that now, or very soon. 

Lesley Manville: Can I tell you a little story? 

Edith Bowman: Please. 

Lesley Manville: Of how I missed meeting her by one night?

Edith Bowman: No!

Lesley Manville: It's quite a good story

Edith Bowman: Head of Research for 'The Crown', Annie Salzberger, will join me to tell us all about the real-life meeting of Princess Margaret and Peter Townsend. 

But first, in this episode, between the Royal divorces and the Windsor Fire, it's a dark time in the Royal Family's history. 

I sat down with the director of this episode, May el-Toukh, and I started off by asking her how she wanted this episode to look visually and how she incorporated this into her storytelling.

May el-Toukhy: Yeah, so we talked a lot about how to create suspense and tension, individuality, almost like the, a sense of a impending doom. And so the different tricks you can use as a storyteller, visual storyteller, and it's about camera movement basically, and it's about 'mise-en-scene'. How do the characters move around in the room and a part of creating new images?

So that was very much part of, of our discussions, and then also the D.O.P I'm working with Hasmus Wulvig, we strive a lot to, to work with light that looks as natural as possible. And so that naturalism also gives a, I think, obvious visual brutality because there's no, you can't hide as much. 

And so of course we had like huge lamps and lights and all of that everywhere. So we worked on, we put up lights, but we tried to, to make it look as natural as possible. And so I think that's part of, of the gloom, the gloom as well. And obviously we grew up in Scandinavia and we were both trained at the Danish Film School and I think there's a certain gaze, I never really thought about it before, but but it's something that I spoke a lot with Peter about what is the gaze?

And I think it's something that just creeps in when you live in a country where it's dark gets very, very dark in wintertime and the light is quite cold. And just the gaze on the world is affected by where you grow up and, you know. And so I think in that way, it, it kind of crept in. But Peter, he keeps asking me "where's the dead body?", you know? And "where's your, where's your knitted sweater?" Because I think sometimes when he looked at rushes, he almost felt like he was watching a crime show.

Edith Bowman: Scandidrama. 

May el-Toukhy: Cause it's so dark and yeah, it's so dark and gloomy. I think he, it suits the show. Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. It works. And it's so fitting as well for those locations that we're talking about, you know, Windsor Castle is, is kind of this, all those kind of Royal palaces and stuff as, as grand as they are, they're so old, you know? And the ghosts of these places as well is something that's really interesting.

May el-Toukhy: Yeah. And there's almost like a Gothic, even though they're not, it's not Gothic architecture, there is a lot of wood and carpets. There's a lot of fabric here in, in England, I found out also just like travelling around in different areas of the country. You like, you like curtains and carpets and bed spreads and...

Edith Bowman: Cushions, and throws.

May el-Toukhy: So very thick and, and heavy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: It's to add colour, cause we get cold so quickly. 

May el-Toukhy: Not to be prejudice. Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: But, but it also, I think really sort of emphasizes that devastation kind of both physically and emotionally, that Elizabeth feels, that the Queen feels when, you know, her beloved Windsor Castle is affected like this. And it's also not just the castle, it's her.

May el-Toukhy: Yeah. And, and in, we talked a lot about, so all the marriages breaks down basically in the first half of the episode. And then, the fire is around the middle. And so, it's almost like a sense of being judged by God, or that's what I wanted to create and recreate, the idea of the fire being like the final nail in the coffin And That's the, you know, the end of it all. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

May el-Toukhy: And then she has to find a way to recover and rebuild and, and she always does, which makes her a fantastic main character because she's, she's so incredibly, incredibly strong. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

May el-Toukhy: And she just always gets up, and maybe that, that can have something to do with her faith among other things. I think also it has to do with the personality type, but I think also has to do with faith and putting your faith in God.

Queen Elizabeth: My Lord Mayor, the anniversary of any occasion is a time to reflect. But in light of the events of the last 12 months, perhaps I have more to reflect on than most.

1992 is not a year on which I shall look back with undiluted pleasure.It has turned out to be an Annus Horribilis.

No institution is beyond reproach and no member of it either. The high standards we in the monarchy are held to by the public, must be the same benchmark to which we hold ourselves personally. If we can't admit the errors of our past, what hope for reconciliation can there be?

Edith Bowman: How was it working with Imelda?

May el-Toukh: With all the actors, I had a fantastic, fantastic collaboration. She's very, very inspiring to work with. She's incredibly smart. And so you have to get up early as a director to match just like an inch of that in-, intelligence. And so I found that our collaboration was very solid, and all actors work in different ways and need different things I think, from a director.

And so it's all about trying to find a language with the individual actor that inspires and can spark motivations and intentions in the scene. And so with all the actors, I try to get time to rehearse with them, for us to find that language, because it makes it easier when we shoot, and when we are under time pressure to know that we have, we have a language together that we can return to.

She's very thoughtful and she knows a lot about her character. And that's also another thing when you're doing a TV show, that sometimes you step into obviously Peter's vision for the show. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

May el-Toukh: But also that, even though it was early in the season and it's a new cast, they still know a lot about their characters because they've thought about it, and embodied the character months before the shooting starts. And so...

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

May el-Toukh: So sometimes it's not about me telling them what their character is. It's about them telling me what they think their character is, and then finding a way where we can enhance that and make that...

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

May el-Toukh: Become understandable and inspirational for an audience to look at.

Edith Bowman: And also, I guess that part of that is then when there's relationships between characters of, I mean, Leslie and Margaret and Imelda's Elizabeth.

May el-Toukh: Yes.

Edith Bowman: You know, that relationship and that bond has been a constant throughout 'The Crown', but I dunno, there's, they've, it feels like that they've obviously, cause Leslie and Imelda know each other and have worked together in the past, but they've brought something just really kind of deep and truthful, I think, to this relationship and this bond between these sisters. And it's, you know, it's interesting to watch that, particularly in this episode, when Townsend's back on the scene and, you know, she's having this reflective moment, kind of almost what could have been and, and all that kind of thing, it's wonderful to watch. And I wondered if that was something that you, you were kind of privy to or observed or talked to them about? About, you know, the two of them, Lesley and Imelda bringing their version, I guess, of this sisterhood. 

May el-Toukh: Yeah. So I spent obviously a lot of time with Imelda in rehearsals, and then spent a lot of time with Lesley because the episode is divided between the sisters and...

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

May el-Toukh: And then we spend some time together, but not too much time, and it's also in terms of rehearsal that some actors like to go on the floor, as we say, in Scandinavia, I don't know what you say when you get up from the table, the reading table, and go to the floor. And some just wanna sit by the table and be protected or protect their instinct and save that for...

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

May el-Toukh: For shooting, but, but we talked a lot about the sisters and where, where they had been as sisters. I think they have an incredibly strong bond also because they alone share their destiny. And I, I guess that's true for all siblings or most siblings that we share destinies, and we are becoming each other's life witnesses if we have contact throughout our whole life. I think what also make them so special is everything that they experienced. They were not, you know, Elizabeth was not supposed to become Queen, and so because of her uncle abdicating, her father becomes King and then she becomes Queen, and so it alters their life fundamentally.

The longest living witness of that is Margaret and Queen Mother. And so I think having experienced that, have tied them together, and in a way they're like night and day, or at least in our, in our show and in our...

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

May el-Toukh: Interpretation of them. But still there's so much love and there's so much they share.

And on our show, they revisit many of the same conflicts over and over again. And I think it's interesting in a, in, in this particular show, because I think normally you would always strive to create new conflicts, and to investigate new views and in order to entertain. But there's something, or at least I find personally there something incredibly touching and interesting in bearing witness to, to the sisters in the different seasons and see different faces and actors take on the conflict and the story, the history...

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

May el-Toukh: Of a given character. 

Princess Margaret: You don't think I have reason to burn down my sister's home? 

Queen Elizabeth: Why would you do that? 

Princess Margaret: Because of what she denied me. Peter Townsend.

Queen Elizabeth: What? 

Princess Margaret: Without sun and water , crops fail Lillibet. Let me ask how many times has Philip done something? Intervene when you couldn't? Be strong when you couldn't be? Be angry when you couldn't be? Be decisive, when you couldn't be? How many times have you said a silent prayer of gratitude for him and thought to yourself, if I didn't have him, I'd never be able to do it? How often? Peter was my sun, my water. And you denied me. 

Queen Elizabeth: I denied you as Queen, not as your sister.

Edith Bowman: The origins of this story with Ben Miles playing Townsend and Vanessa Kirby playing Margaret and going through that, and living that experience. And now you can absolutely see a through line to that kind of pain that's still there in Lesley’s performance.

May el-Toukhy: Yeah, and, and the fact that Margaret feels that even the Queen does not even acknowledge the pain she has caused. And on the other side, Queen is saying, "yeah, but I didn't deny you as your sister. I denied you as Queen." So again, it's about preserving the crown and this is the job. And so in a way, there's something beautiful about, or I find, and touching about human beings and the human condition, the fact that we go back and revisit the same conflict in a new wrapping over and over again through life.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

The casting is always just pristine and, and perfect, and, and that goes, you know, that's, that's down to extras to actors that may kind of turn up for a scene, and the casting of Timothy Dalton as the older Townsend is perfection. I just think that there's such tenderness to his performance and that relationship and... Oh it's just, it's, it's so wonderful watching those two on screen together.

May el-Toukhy: Yeah. And it was one of those things where, because historically on the show, the idea of casting a star to play a minor character, or a character that has a big presence in a given episode and historically on the show, it's not very usual. Usually we, we go for someone who, who is not too famous basically. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

May el-Toukhy: For, for those kind of characters. So it's something we discussed a lot, but I think given the fact that Townend has such a profound impact on the family, and on Margaret, and the relationship between Margaret and Elizabeth, it makes sense to, to cast someone like Timothy Dalton in the character of, of Peter Townsend.

When that kind of fell into place, for me personally, I could just see that that was completely the right choice to have someone like that to play him. Because even though he pops into this episode and then when the episode is done, we never see him again, there's something, it makes sense in a way to give Townsend in that leverage and to honour his legacy like that. And something we discussed a lot, is that how seldom it is that you see a love story folded out with people of a certain age in fiction. And so that's also something that we talked a lot about being, wanting to expose that. Because we're so used to seeing with Vanessa and Miles, the old or the young, Townsend and Margaret. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

May el-Toukhy: They, they, it's very easy to, to be in that arena and to, because we're so used to seeing that kind of love onscreen, young love. We are not used to seeing that mature love that we expose on, on episode four. And so that was something that we spoke a lot about, me and Timothy Dalton and Lesley, to be brave and to make it passionate and seductive and sexy basically.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. Feel that chemistry through the screen. 

May el-Toukhy: Yeah. To feel that chemistry and to, and in a way it's controversial, you know, which is weird because it shouldn't be that. But it's just not something we're very used to.

Edith Bowman: Yeah, definitely.

…Princess Margaret: That was lovely. I hope we don't leave it another 40 years before meeting again. 

Townsend: Well, as it happens, I should be back in London soon. And there are some things I'd like to return to you, your letters. 

Princess Margaret: Oh.

Townsend: Not as a rejection. I kept them all. Reading them, it took me back to that time and I thought they are so precious. I'm not getting any younger, and if anything should happen, I'd hate to see them fall into the wrong hands. So I, well, I thought better with you. 

Princess Margaret: That's very thoughtful of you. As it happens, I kept all your letters too. Every one of them.

Good night, Peter.

Townsend: Goodnight, Your Royal Highness

Edith Bowman: There was a lot going on in this episode. So let's get a little more context from our research queen, Annie Sulzberger. Annie's been answering some key questions for us in every episode of the season, and we have to know, did Margaret and Peter really get to reunite one last time?

Annie Sulzberger: They did. 

Edith Bowman: Cute.

Annie Sulzberger: And it's lovely. Yeah, done. They, there are sources that say that in ’91 they did cross paths and she issues a invitation to come to lunch, cause he's due back in 92 for the Vanguard reunion, HMS Vanguard, which we show. And he's there actually with his wife in London, but his wife decides not to join them for the lunch because she believes they should have a moment together.

Yes. It's very lovely. And, you know, by this point, Townsend had written an autobiography called 'Time and Chance', it was published in '78, that divulged everything about their romance. And though it was respectful, it was still quite an indiscretion and really hurt Margaret. So she actually hadn't spoken to him since that happened. She had had a friend of hers, a mutual friend, write to him and say, "you know, why, why would you do this?" He ignored that letter. 

So 1992 is the first time they've seen each other since 1958. And…

Edith Bowman: Wow. 

Annie Sulzberger: Yeah. And he is very happy, you know, he is still married to Marie Luce, who he married after his relationship with Margaret was very clearly not gonna be able to move forward.

And he has three kids and they live in France and he seems, he's a little curmudgeonly, we've been told. He's sort of that guy that was just like, "well in my time", but that's fine, he was a genuinely happy guy. And what's interesting is I think there was a sort of slight misunderstanding about what this reunion was for them. For her, we've read it was perhaps like a final reminder of what could have been. And for him it really was like a final goodbye to a dear friend.

He died three years later. So I think it stirred emotions in her, very true to what we show, that maybe weren't there for him. That last kiss in that episode is, I think, exactly right which you can see for him it's a goodbye, and "it's been so lovely to see you one last time." He's not aware he's dying, but I don't think he has any intention of coming back. And for her, it's a kind of, sort of reminder, a little frisante of, of that love that she had, that got taken from her.

Edith Bowman: And finally, it's time to hear from Princess Margaret played by the legendary Lesley Manville. We sat down together on set at Elstree Studios in Diana's incredible apartment not long after they'd finished filming. 

Princess Margaret has been on such a journey across the last few seasons. I asked Lesley where we find Margaret at the beginning of this season.

Lesley Manville: Well, I think the series has begins, not that you would know it, cause it's not so much in the script.

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Lesley Manville: But she's, she doesn't, she's not in a relationship. She's living on her own at Kensington Palace. She's lonely and she's made, and this is the truth, she's made a conscious decision to serve her sister, and the crown and devote herself to that life. But when you get to episode four, you have Peter Townsend in his farmhouse in France, married with children, grandchildren, hearing her on the World Service. He's coming to London to go to some ball that he suspects she'll be at, and he writes her a letter. And there's a lovely sequence where, you know, the letter's there on the tray in the morning, and, you know, she's feeding the dog, having breakfast in bed, having a bath, putting on some makeup, fiffy faffing around all day and then finally opens this letter and it's like ‘ah!’. It’s from him!

Edith Bowman: Screaming at the telly, going 'open the letter!'

Lesley Manville: I know, "open the letter! It's him!" And of course, it sends her into a bit of a, a flurry, you know, an inward flurry. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Townsend: Dear Margaret, it is possible this letter will come as a nasty intrusion rather than a pleasant surprise. I'm planning a rare visit to London from the ile de France and found myself wondering if you had any plans to attend the reception next week at the Caledonian Club.

Princess Margaret: For the crew who served on HMS Vanguard.

Queen Elizabeth: Peter Townsend. 

Princess Margaret: Yes. 

Queen Elizabeth: When was the last time you heard from him?

Princess Margaret: Oh, it must be 35 years ago.

Queen Elizabeth: Isn't HMS Vanguard where you and Peter...

Princess Margaret: Fell in love. 

Queen Elizabeth: Not sure it was love at the beginning.

Princess Margaret: Of course it was love, at the very first glance. 

Lesley Manville: Although historically, by the time she'd been forced to spend two years apart from him, until as the Queen instructed her when you are 25, then you can make decisions for yourself, whether you want to give up your line to the lineage to the throne, give up your privilege life and be literally Mrs Townsend, you can make that decision at 25. He was sent to Belgium for two years, she didn't, they didn't see each other. And the truth is really, that he came back and, you know, she'd been having a good time.

So, he comes back into her life and it makes her see the man she could have had, the man who she deeply loved.

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Lesley Manville: The life she could have had, if he'd have been accepted into the Royal Family, and she wouldn't have had to have make any compromises on her own position to be his wife. And she sees the lost love, and looks at her life right now in the nineties which is quite empty. And it fires up all of this stuff in her emotional turmoil, and he gives her back the letters and she opens all the letters and... oh, I mean it's yeah, it's heartrending stuff, and then gets quite angry with her sister. 

Edith Bowman: And it's got such a whole bittersweet, full circle of, you know, what, he's there to tell her as well. You know, the fact that he is, he's dying and it's, you also then feel so, sort of heart warmed that they reconnected before he did. 

Lesley Manville: Yeah.

Edith Bowman: To, maybe in a way, say to each other what they needed to say.

Lesley Manville: I think in looking at Margaret and Peter in the context of 'The Crown', all 60 episodes, it needed to be tied up, didn't it? 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Lesley Manville: It needed to have an ending. It had to have some closure. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Lesley Manville: So it's brilliant that it does.

Edith Bowman: The lovely, um, scenes in the ball, the, the, you know, where they, they reunite and it's lovely because there's a whole...It's, it's almost like a little short film, really, because the arc of the, of them kind of dancing around each other, to then dancing with each other, to the conversations that they have, it's beautiful to watch. And you see in your performance that old Margaret come out. 

Lesley Manville: Yeah.

Edith Bowman: You know, she's put up those barriers. She's kind of decided that this is what she's gotta be. She's gonna... and, and then you just see them, them fall away and you see you know, it's wonderful to watch. Was that a fun scene to shoot? 

Lesley Manville: Yeah, it was lovely. And I think it's, we all know that the Royal Family is shrouded in privilege, and you can have an opinion about that. But what I like about those moments at that dance is that it could be anybody, cause it's about deep, deep, deep feelings and the need to be loved, the need to be, to have somebody in your life who loves you, who cherishes you, who looks out for you, who is there for you. And that, that's very good that you said it's like a little story on its own, it is. It's like a little vignette, isn't it? 

And I remember when I was reading that scene, she's about to leave, and I remember reading it and thinking 'for heaven sake, woman! Don't leave. 

Edith Bowman: There’s more

Lesley Manville: You need to connect with this man.' You can't just say hello and walk away, and have a lovely conversation with Anne and leave him over there talking to his other regiment people.

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Lesley Manville: You've got to come together and it's, it's so sweet that they come together over the Hoagy Carmichael song. You sort of forget that she's a Royal, she's just this, the woman who probably still feels 18. And you know, when they used to go off  riding together and... 

Can I tell you a little story?

Edith Bowman: Please.

Lesley Manville: Of how I missed meeting her by one night? 

Edith Bowman: No!

Lesley Manville: It's quite a good story. I'm a breastfeeding mother. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Lesley Manville: And I can't tell this story without name dropping. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Lesley Manville: I'm on holiday in Mustique with David Bowie.

Edith Bowman: Great. 

Lesley Manville: With my then husband, and, and he lives next door to Mick Jagger, and, and then Margaret, you know.

Edith Bowman: That's a, that's a hell of a street. 

Lesley Manville: So we're there, we've been there about 10 days. I won't go into the details, but I get a breastfeeding problem and we have to come home. And David Bowie rang me up to see how I was, if I was alright, and he said, you missed a great night. I said, "what, what, what did we miss?"

He said, "the day you left, Margaret rang up and said, Would you like to come and bring your house guests round to mine? We can have a bit of an evening" and Mick Jagger was there as well, and apparently I missed a great evening and she was playing the drums. I mean!

Edith Bowman: Oh my God. 

Lesley Manville: What a time to get mastitis!

Edith Bowman: Oh, cabbage leaves at the ready. Oh, Lesley, that's an amazing story. 

Lesley Manville: Isn't it? 

Edith Bowman: Wow. 

Lesley Manville: Who'd've thought them? I mean, I was in my early thirties then.

Edith Bowman: Was that period, that wasn't during this period that you were playing her in 'The Crown'? 

Lesley Manville: No. Earlier. 

Edith Bowman: Okay. Because that would've been bonkers really. Wouldn’t it!

Lesley Manville: I mean, that was around the time Helena was playing her and there were all those scenes in Mustique.

Edith Bowman: Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Lesley Manville: And she was having...

Edith Bowman: Wow.

Lesley Manville: I know. 

Edith Bowman: That's a great story. 

Did you have to keep it secret for a long time?

Lesley Manville: Ages. Absolutely ages. Well over a year, at least.

Edith Bowman: No.

Lesley Manville: Oh God. Yes. Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: And did, cause I was, because you and Imelda are friends. 

Lesley Manville: Yes. 

Edith Bowman: Did you know about each other?

Lesley Manville: We did. I think we were because yes, cause yes, they, when I met Peter, he said Imelda and I, and we, we happened to be with the same agents. We also knew, I also knew cause of that. Because then it got released that Imelda was going to be the Queen, obviously you're gonna rele- press release that first. And then it was, there was, it was some time before it was me and I had to do that with her mouth cause she kept wanting to say, "but Lesley’'s in it" ... Shhh! It just seems so right that we are playing sisters.

Edith Bowman: It's so brilliant. 

Lesley Manville: It, it really seems right.

Princess Margaret: 'Stardust' by Hogey Carmichael. 

Radio Presenter: You played the piano yourself, of course. 

Princess Margaret: Yes. I had lessons from a young age. My sister had lessons in constitutional history and I had piano. 

Radio Presenter: Is music your first love? 

Princess Margaret: One has many first loves. When one reaches a certain age, one cannot help embarking on an audit of the heart, a review. One considers all those loves, those dreams and youthful passions in the context of a whole life. And it's interesting to note what endures. Some that remain and become lasting loves, and some that fade and one realises were probably never true loves at all.

Thankfully, music has been a constant in my life and I expect it shall remain so. 

Radio Presenter: Does this final record have any special meaning for you?

Princess Margaret: It does have special meaning, yes.

Edith Bowman: Episode four, you know, really focuses on Margaret. We have the, the 'Desert Island Discs' recording. Is that useful that you had, I mean, I imagine that, that the archive of that is there for you to listen to? 

Lesley Manville: Yes. 

Edith Bowman: But is that a useful thing or is it not? You know, in terms of you've got her actually the recording of that, you can listen to it. You can be in that moment while she's doing it. 

Lesley Manville: Yes.

Edith Bowman: Is that helpful? Or is it, you kind of push it to one side?

Lesley Manville: No, it was helpful. I mean, because we are not, you know, we're not doing impersonations.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Lesley Manville: So it's useful because you, you could hear at certain times listening to that, an attitude coming through. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Lesley Manville: I mean, her, I was quite surprised by her music choices. I mean, I, that really did surprise me. I thought there'd be more of the Hogey Carmichael 'Stardust' type of music in there. But I don't know how much of that would've been the front.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Lesley Manville: I've got to put the brass bands, and the religious...

Edith Bowman: The 'Royal Desert Island Discs', as opposed to... Yeah.

Lesley Manville: That's right. I'm not sure about that. I'll never know. 

Edith Bowman: But I think you should record another version of it.

Lesley Manville: As Margaret.

Edith Bowman: As Margaret with your choices of what you think she should think pick.

Lesley Manville: Well, clearly she liked The Rolling Stones. 

Edith Bowman: Clearly, and the drums, who knew?

Lesley Manville: But yeah, it was so I did listen to that and it was useful because interestingly, unless you are probably even older than me, you won't remember hearing Margaret so much. When she was younger, she was out there and you could hear her voice a lot, except obviously television and radio and social media then was all kind of much reduced anyway. But there's very little recording of her in the nineties.

'Desert Island Discs' was actually in the eighties, and then the research team found another recording of her doing an interview at the Palace, talking about her memories of being in Buckingham Palace when the war was on, and then when the war was over. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Lesley Manville: And she, and it's a short little seven minute interview and that's really all I had. So I thought, well, people don't really know her voice like we know Diana's voice and Charles's voice. We are so familiar with the sound of them. People were not so familiar of, with her older voice at least. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. Have you got a, a memory that, from this experience so far with 'The Crown', what's the thing that pops into your head of being the, kind of the most sort of prominent memory?

Lesley Manville: I think the showdown scene with Imelda, because from the moment I read it, I was aching to play it. 

Princess Margaret: The conditions are irrelevant. The prohibition is what counts. A prohibition, incidentally, you are not now extending to Anne. 

Queen Elizabeth: It's different. 

Princess Margaret: How is it different? Anne is a Royal princess with no prospect of exceeding to the throne as was I. Commander Lawrence is a palace equerry, marrying scandalously above his station. Peter was a palace equerry, hoping to marry scandalously above his. Anne and Commander Lawrence are in love. Peter and I were in love. In both cases, one party is a divorcee. See the situation is identical in every way, except for the outcome. She is being allowed to marry him. I wasn't. Her story ends happily. Mine did not.

And yet even after 40 years, you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge what happened to me and the part you played in it.

Lesley Manville: It's a brilliant piece of writing. It's two sisters arguing as sisters. It's backed by Margaret's pain and loneliness, and the reason I also picked that moment is because the costume played an enormous part in that scene for me. Amy just made a suggestion to me and it just, for me, brought it all together. Because of course the Royal Family don't really do casual, our version of a tracksuit at home, you know, I mean, Margaret does do a, she does rock a kaftan and she does spend a whole day in a kaftan. But she was going around to see the Queen so she'd have to be in some sort of, you know, day dress, however casual. And her hair was not quite so struck, we, that was great, we just, just not so brushed through and structured it was just a bit messier. But still I kind of, I was in this dress and I, I, I just, I thought I, I wanted it to have a feeling about it that was sort of abandoned.

Edith Bowman: Yep.

Lesley Manville: And I, I couldn't latch onto that bit of it. The language was  abandoned. My hair was abandoned, but the rest didn't feel… And Amy said, "well, she's gotta travel there. So she's gonna have a coat. Why?" And this is gonna sound really weird, but it was she, "why don't we just throw on that old mink of hers?" And it was brilliant.

Edith Bowman: Amazing.

Lesley Manville: Because normally the coats are quite tailored and structured. And I know we think of mink as being, but actually for them, it was just a way of keeping warm and it was a sort of, you know, you put on the mink.

Edith Bowman: Threw it on. 

Lesley Manville: But because it was quite a loose mink and I could put my hands in my pockets and it did just feel like I've got this day dress on underneath and just throwing on the mink. And it, for me just brought it all together. It was a genius bit of costume designing, but not just costume designing, but Amy, knowing what I was looking for. 

Edith Bowman: Amazing. 

Lesley Manville: I say, "I just need something"  "just throw on the old mink."

Edith Bowman: Great. That, and that's so interesting because I remember in the last season when Helena has the showdown with her mum on the beach and she's got, she's got a mink on.

Lesley Manville: Over her shoulders.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. Yeah. It's it's like her arms armour in a way it's kinda like just gives her some kind of confidence to confront. 

Lesley Manville: Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: Say what she needs to say. 

Lesley Manville: Yeah. It cause it's like so decadent, but worn in such a 'I'm just nipping to Tesco's’ kind of way' 

Edith Bowman: Margaret and her mink off to Tesco's, I love it. But it's, it's brilliant because you still own her, you know, she's your Margaret in this, in your version of her. Although she's she was a real person, you're still dramatising Peter Morgan's script based on a real person, there are lots of different, there's a line to find isn't there in terms of. 

Lesley Manville: Yeah, there is, there's absolutely a line to find and, and I find that line a little bit hard to analyse because I think acting and is a bit blurry. It, I trust my instincts more than I ever did 20, 30 years ago. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Lesley Manville: And that's, I think is to do with age and experience and, but it is hard to define, because you could carry on doing research on Margaret and the Royal Family forever. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Lesley Manville: But we are doing a drama, and so finally you have to put all of that away. And the only thing that is then important and I deliberately, I'd done all these little tabs in the books, all these books, I'd read all little pink tabs for good bits. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Lesley Manville: That I read them and I thought, 'yeah, that's gonna come in handy, tab that.' I've not gone back to one of those tabs since, I mean, it's in there, so it's in here somewhere, but.

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Lesley Manville: Because finally I've got a script.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Lesley Manville: And it might differ from actually specifically what happened. But we're making a drama and I have to make that script and those scenes come to life. And, and you know, also we are dealing with stuff that… You can write a lot about the history and the historical facts of things. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Lesley Manville: And people can say, 'yes, I was at dinner with her and this happened and that happened,' but nobody knows what that woman was thinking when she went to bed on her own at night. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Lesley Manville: And when she woke up in the morning with just the dog there. Nobody knows what that woman was going through, so I have to imagine what she was going through and do my version of what I think she's going through.

Edith Bowman: I'm Edith Bowman, and I want to give special thanks to our guests on this episode May el-Toukhy, Annie Sulzberger, and Lesley Manville. 'The Crown: The Official Podcast' is produced by Netflix and Somethin'  Else in association with Left Bank Pictures. 

Join me next time, when I go behind the scenes of episode five of season five of 'The Crown' titled 'The Way Ahead'. 

Prince Charles hopes to move on from Annus Horribilis and make changes to the system that will help secure not only the future of the monarchy, but his own position within it. However, the release of some intimate telephone recordings between Charles and Camilla destroys all of that, but can he rescue his public image and assert himself in what looks like a failing monarchy?

…Prince Charles: Historians will not be able to pinpoint a moment when the breakaway happened, because nothing official has happened, but a change is happening. I ask you to look around you, what do you see? Not old stuffy courtiers, but young professional men and women of today. The Way Ahead Group or the Lagging Behind Group, as I like to call was set up to prepare the monarchy for the coming millennium, but it seems to me, they hold some confusions to which millennium were actually in.

I think as a guiding principle, if we're interested in saving the monarchy, we should do the exact opposite of what The Way Ahead Group recommends. 

Courtier: I think we all agree, and polls certainly show that the monarchy is in a rut, a dangerous rut. It's vital that people are given a reason to believe in and be excited about the future. And if one asks oneself what the future of the monarchy is, and the answer is is you sir. But right now, the problem is no one knows you. They don't know who you really are, nor what you think or feel.

Prince Charles: I quite agree