The Crown: The Official Podcast

DESCRIPTION

This is how I'd like to spend all my time. 

Owning horses, breeding horses, racing horses. It's what makes me truly happy.

And I actually think it's what I was born to do, until the other thing came along,

that someone else was born to do, that they elected not to do, which meant that first my father, then I had to do a job we were never meant to do.

Welcome to the Crown: The Official Podcast. I'm Edith Bowman and this show will follow the third season of the Netflix original series The Crown episode by episode, taking you behind the scenes, speaking with many of the talented people involved, and diving deep into the stories. 

Today we're talking about Episode Five, called ‘Coup’. Upon the devaluation of the pound, recently ousted Chief of Defence Staff Mountbatten is approached to lead a military coup against Wilson’s government.  Meanwhile, Elizabeth visits international horse breeders where she gets a glimpse of the life she could have led, where she’s free to pursue her passions. 

We’ll cover specific events and scenes that featured in this episode. So if you haven't watched episode five yet, please do so now, or very soon.

Coming up later, we will hear from actor Jason Watkins, who plays Prime Minister Harold Wilson.  Jason speaks of Wilson’s unexpected bond with the Queen as well as his embarrassment over the economic downtown during his time in office.

JW: As a rather brilliant economist, it hurts him doubly 

E: Yeah

JW: that he was unable to prop up the pound. And so it was a crisis of economics and a personal crisis. And he says that in the senior, me personally…

We’ll also hear from head of research Annie Sulzberger, who will speaks in detail about the economic situation in the UK in 1967 as well as the evolving powers of the Crown.

She could free all prisoners if she wanted to, she could disband the army. But she can't. Because the minute she does that, it's no longer democracy.

But first I spoke with German director Christian about his personal connection to The Crown and what drew him the character of Queen Elizabeth. 

E: Christian, thank you so much for being here to talk to us about your involvement in the crowd and season three, because you are just about to hop on a plane back to Germany as well. So 

C: That's right. 

E: Much appreciate it. Can we go back before you actually kind of started work on it and how you were approached to be part of the Crown season three.

C: I have an agent and in London.

E: Yeah. 

C: And he spoke to different people in the industry here and I think one day he talked to Susan Mackie and showed her a film that I made a period drama about Germany's most famous female artists and apparently she really liked that and had a feeling this director could could be a fit for the crown. And then I had a real interview on Skype with her. And I talked to her why I love the crown and why it's so special for me. 

E: Why is that? 

C: I was born in East Germany. So I spent my childhood there and even though you know, I was not a victim of, of the system, but I know how it feels to, to live behind the wall. 

E: Yeah

C: And I know how exciting it is to lead a life in freedom. So the character of young Elizabeth who, from one day to the other, becomes so powerful, but also has to move into a prison for the rest of her life deeply moved me and still does. Yeah, that's my main connection to the crown.

E: That's an incredible way to put it, you know, in terms of that personal connection that you have with it. And personal connection with her story as well because it's interesting because for you was it your first English language series that you'd worked on and and also for the Crown it was you were one of the first non…

C: The first foreigner? 

E: Well that’s debatable…(laugh) But but but you know there's there's it's that's a great kind of connection as well and a great story in looking for that that vision I guess yeah, I side and and also really inspired and impressed by the work that you've done in Germany as well.

E: So then that happens 

S: And then I met Peter,

E: Then you met Peter. 

C: I was scared to death when I met him first. We met at his house, which is a very nice house. 

E: Yeah. 

C: And we had a conversation and I felt like he doesn't like me. He doesn't smile at me and he was listening. 

E: Yeah. 

C: It was a Saturday and I was in the middle of shooting my last feature film. But then they called on Monday and said Come over. Let's do this together.

E: Amazing

E:And then how do you work out? or How did he let you know what episode you're going to be working on and how that's going to work?

C: I knew it would be two episodes, but it took a while to send me scripts. 

E: Yeah. 

C:But when I got them a few weeks later, I first got the episode five script. And I was so excited because you could immediately feel it's something very political. And it's, even though it takes place in in ’67, the coup we're talking about in Episode Five, it feels so like now, in a way. 

E: Yeah. 

C: Because, you know, it's old men trying to play dirty politics and to kind of to save something they they feel needs to be saved, which is their power, their money and 

E: history repeating itself almost isn’t it? 

C: Yeah. 

E: Yeah. 

E: It's such a brilliant thing. And that's the thing that Peter talks about. About it always coming back to her, every episode coming back to her and how she deals with every situation. And that constant turmoil that she has between her role as, you know, the monarch on her on her private personal as a mother as a wife as a, you know, it's kind of that constant. It's never ending. There's no pull that she has both ways.

C: And she has it with everybody. She has it with Margaret. She has with her children with her husband. 

E: Yeah

C: Yeah, that's 

E: With herrself as well.

C: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm really happy that I was able to do this scene with her and her friend Porchie in Episode Five, where she's opening up and telling him and I think she she will never do that in other episodes, to tell them who she really is or who she could be. 

E: Yeah 

C: In a different world. It was great for her and for me to show her being happy. So it's only him the sandwiches, a cup of tea and two horses. And it's this is actually what could make her so happy. 

E: Simple Life. 

C: Yeah. And then the scene where she actually talks to him, she says, It's, this was the most enjoyable day of my life of my entire life. But also, it's such a sad day because I know, it shows me who I am, but also who I could be. I mean, it's such a strong drama. And, of course, it's a it was a great gift for me to to have a story of hers, but that’s so substantial and allows me to show her in a different way. 

E: Yeah I think though as well, Peters scripts are incredible in terms of how he's able to navigate this incredible story that he's telling. These people that we know, we think we know, but he also allows you as a director to really have your own journey with that script. With those actors and yeah

C: Yeah, it's wonderful because Peter, he comes from theatre. So, theatre you have to, to find every move between the words and to fill the gaps between the lines and his writing…his dialogues are brilliant. They were like a big invitation for me to reinvent the scenes or not reinvent but to, to find a lot more and to make them richer and because you can always trust his scenes and they will always work. But there's Yeah, I mean, there's a million ways to do them and I think I took a lot of time to prepare different options for every scene.

E: And do you collaborate with with your cast a lot on it? You talk about Olivia and particular scenes, talk to them about how you see and the different options that you have in your head for your…?

C: Yes, but every actor is different. And Olivia, for instance, she very often just just asked me, tell me how you see it, and I'm going to do it. Whereas Tobias we would call each other day or a week before doing the scene. And for instance, the end of Episode Five. After the Coup thing is solved, we see them meeting up in her in her little drawing room. And they have a little, not an argument, but there's a little bit of tension. And then he comes and kisses her. 

E: So it's so delicate. 

C: And so this was never in the script. It was Tobias’ idea. He just did it in the rehearsal. And I was like, be I think he did it a bit as a joke. But then we were like, Oh my god, this is how the scene has to end. You know what I mean? 

E: Yeah

C: And so it's a very often it's finding things together. And the great thing about the Crown is that it's not you don't have to rush through the shooting days. So you have time for rehearsal, and we would talk scenes through and decide which is the best part of a room beforehand. So yeah, it's so many different ways of doing a scene. And sometimes I would even ask Peter before and he would say, just do it. You're the director. So there's your, the answer to your question is, yes, there's a lot of freedom, how to do a scene.

E: And then also as well, that those scenes can also have a different life once you get into the Edit as well, once you work with the music, and there's the in particular, you know, we talked about this wonderful, intimate scene that she's she's having with her friend and his insight into the world she could have had, she's taken to a phone call. And then there's 

C: With Wilson yeah  

Phone call between Wilson and Elizabeth

I feel compelled to remind your Majesty that tolerance of the royal family is hanging by a thread as it is.

And throughout my time in office, I have done my level best to protect you.

But if members of the royal family were to interfere with the political business of the day, I would be left with no option but to side with the republican elements of my cabinet, which I have successfully controlled until now.

And take steps.

Leave it with me, Prime Minister.

Your Majesty. 

E: And then that walk that she has back.

C: Yeah, that was that was. Yeah. Peter and I discussed about because he wanted me to create a bit shorter and I said, No, it needs to be that long. 

E: Yeah.

E: I wonder I wanted to ask as well as well how, how the themes influence how and what you shoot as well in terms of you know, with with Episode Five The Coup, there's this, you know, the state of the country, that whole kind of cloud that sort of hanging over, and Mountbatten and his involvement in it as well. And whether that influences your approach to how you shoot in terms of this, this all this kind of stuff going on in the outside.

C: When I read the script first and then I met with Peter to speak about it, we were speaking more about Britain today than about the story. So of course, once you know, it's you're not just directing a period piece. 

E: Yeah.

C: It inspires you more and you kind of try to I mean, this is what what we tried with this episode. To make it look less period drama. You know what I mean? 

E: Yeah

C: The 60s helped us and we have this I mean, this Daily Mirror office, and I watched original footage of the time and it was a messy place. Everybody was smoking. There was papers on the floor. It doesn't feel like, like long time ago. And so we we made the episode a bit less glossy.

E: Yeah. Yeah.

C: Because we wanted it to feel like it's happening again. And if we didn't you know, we don't watch out there are strange dangerous forces who take over

E: Yeah, it's a bit dirty.

C: Yeah,

E: Yeah, no, I absolutely get that. 

E: I love as well because this for me is the moment where you really believe the friendship and trust that has developed over time between the queen and Wilson when you start the season with this relationship and you go she's not too keen on him. No. And then as that develops, and in this particular episode, he realies on her…  

C: He really needs her and I think we can feel that even though it's through the phone, and it's between London and America so a big distance. 

E: Yeah

C: She can feel That she has to declare a position. A very clear one. And that's what she does. And also in a very distinct way, I mean, the scene with Mountbatten afterwards when she's really angry, so it's hard for her to, to hide her anger. I mean, she still finds nice words at the end. But yeah, I love the episode because she has to, she has to do real politics. And she she understands how important her role can be. 

E: Yeah. 

C: In the beginning of the episode, she feels like she's, she's useless. She has actually nothing meaningful to say or to do. And, yeah, through Wilson. She understands that she has real power and that she can change politics.

E: Can you talk a little bit about Charles dance who plays Mountbatten and Olivia in that scene, how you shot that and what the conversations were around that?

C: I mean, I do remember that. I talked to her to Olivia about the beginning of the scene and I guess we have several shots on her, but one is very close. And I said to her, before Mountbatten enters no, the second he enters, try to hide your anger and play the whole anger with your teeth. And I think you can see that she's trying not to look angry, but she has to. She has to force herself 

E: Bite it back. 

C: Exactly. Yeah, she's amazing. And what I just can say is that Charles and Olivia have big respect for the other and Charles went really far. And it's an emotional scene for him too, because his whole dream of becoming an important person again…

E: yeah 

C: Just disappears within five seconds. And he knows it. He knows okay now. My official life is over. And he doesn't cry. It was really nice to do this scene because there's some so many emotions that are hidden. 

E: Yeah 

C: But not hidden completely. It's a great scene because yeah, like you say, he's expecting something completely different. And within five seconds he knows Okay, that's it. That's it for me. I'm now going to retire. 

E: Yeah. 

C: Which is heartbreaking too.

M: Why are you doing this? Why would you protect a man like Wilson?

Q: I am protecting the Prime Minister. I am protecting the Constitution. I am protecting democracy.

M: But if the man at the heart of that democracy threatens to destroy it, are we supposed to just stand by and do nothing?

Q: Yes. Doing nothing is exactly what we do. And bide our time and wait for the people that voted him in to vote him out again, if indeed that is what they decide to do.

E: It's a family drama. This is about people we think we know. And the research department is such a huge and important part of it. And also those people who go, well this would happen, this wouldn't happen. And the want and the need for the authenticity around this world is so precise.

C: Yes, absolutely. And that's why I love it. To work here I am, I started before I became a filmmaker was a journalist. So my approach is always research, research, research, and trying to understand the reality of my of my subject. So coming to the crown was like, arriving in paradise. You know, we have Annie and her team, the research department, they find they can find out whatever you ask them, and I mean, there's so many details people probably will never see, 

E: There's a lot of great cars in this episode

C: Yes, I mean we have to I had many conversations with Eddie my art director about cars and he showed me different options it's also based on research when they found out what kind of car would Lord Mountbatten have when he's still in charge and what's his private cars so I mean it's nothing we made up and I think we even knew what Cecil King's car was so there are many Rolls Royce and great cars but it's nothing that we made up it's you know, it's what what history told us so that's why we have all those cars.

E: in the same way in the episode where Anne is driving in a car with Bowie on the on the stereo that tells you so much about her, the world, the period and stuff as well and kind of what kind of character is really 

C: Yeah 

E: In the same way that these cars are almost the kind of visual stimulus to something or to a character or a place or…it’s clever.

C: I mean they represent power, right?  I mean when the bankers are arriving at Broadlands the Mountbatten's estate. 

E: Yeah. 

C: It feels like like an army coming. 

E: Yeah. 

E: And the train. I love the train. 

C: On the train, train. The train train was a tricky one the train and plane because both are built in studio and to make it look like a real train journey is technically quite hard. Even though CGI is able to do a lot, but it's still hard work to make it look like a real train. 

E: Ah see I thought it was a real train. 

C: No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

C: I have to tell you Buckingham Palace is also not 

E: No! Thank you so much. 

C: You're welcome.

Next I spoke with head of research, Anie Sulzberger, who explains the economic situation in the UK at the time, and how that might have contributed to dissatisfaction in Wilson's government.

E: Let's talk about this coup 

A: Oh, yeah 

E: If we can. So 1967 the kind of political economic situation in the UK is there's all sorts going on really isn't that kind of, sort of state of unrest really?

A: Yeah. So essentially, this artificially high Sterling issue is continuing to just wreak havoc. So Wilson knows that in order to keep the pound…if he's going to prioritise the health of Sterling, at 2.8 dollars, and everything was tied to the dollar at that point, so 2.8 dollars. He's going to have to get bailouts all the time. There's no possible way that he can't, that he can keep it high, and not beg for money from other countries, because what he inherited was a deficit. So the UK is importing far more than it's exporting. So they're spending a lot of cash and they're not earning much cash. And actually, societally at this point, everyone's doing okay. But then they're spending it on more imports. And so it's just like this, the productivity isn't particularly high. England used to be kind of the workshop of the world and how that's how died off but it's this is inevitable thing that they're going to have to devalue the pound in order to stop begging for cash. It's just not healthy, it's not viable anymore. So he accepts that in doing this, I'm not only pulling back the curtain and admitting that the UK is in severe financial distress. But I'm also kind of admitting that globally, the UK is not that important anymore. If it's not a world economic powerhouse, and kind of what is it. So it's not a decision he takes lightly. But there's no real alternative. It happens he devalues it in November 1967 by 14%. So it goes down from 2.8 to 2.4. And this immediately damages his credibility. And at a time when sort of his governments already under attack for poor employment figures for wage freezes for spending cuts, all these things that he's trying to do to not devalue the pound, and tax rises. And then also, there's a huge brain drain of the well educated younger group of you know, this new generation where they're just like, I'm never going to find good work here at high wage, I need to get the heck out of here.  So everything goes tits up. And I mean, it's the consequences. are, there's this thing called the London gold pool, which one of our researchers Daniel tried so hard to get his head around and he did a beautiful job on it. But essentially, there's like a run on gold after that, because of Sterling got devalued in the patent, the dollar would get devalued. And then gold went up in value. And so it caused a whole, you know, domino effect of, of sort of global financial issues and more panic, I think, than than anything, but it was a real real embarrassment for him. Because it was really something he inherited from the Tories before they should have done it then. Yeah.

HW: As you know, this government is committed to maintaining sterling at $2 80 at to the bound. But with every economic blow, the oil embargo, the balance of payments deficit, and the Dockers union strike, it's proving harder and harder to maintain.

And I'm afraid that now we have no alternative but to devalue the pound.

Q: Oh.

HW: And I need hardly say it is a matter of overwhelming regret for me personally, and a humiliation for the government.

E: The power that the crown has over the government and how, through history that's kind of diminished as well, because you know, their roles very much almost used to be the reverse.

A: Absolutely. Yeah, so if you go back to mediaeval times, you know, the sovereign was all encompassing, you know, and when that started to be clearly not very healthy, you had the creation of the Magna Carta. And then I think partly, you know, the creation of the role of the Prime Minister, which was the first minister under George I was part was due to the fact that we imported a monarch from Germany and he didn't know the system very well. So there became this role of First Minister and sort of helped translate government to him. And that's sort of when you start to see … and really, I mean, it had prior to that absolutely become its own thing. But that role of Prime Minister that we explore starts to become a really significant leader figure there now head of the government in a way that she is head of state. 

E: Yeah. 

A: So it's actually rather complicated because on paper, she has royal prerogative powers.   She could free all prisoners. If she wanted to. She could you know, disband the army, but she can't, because the minute she does that, it's no longer democracy. She’s no longer constitutional monarch she is, you know, a dictator, more or less. And for her I think this is very important, no matter how bad the country gets, she truly believes that if you want to change it, you gotta vote. That's, that's our democratic, right. It's our responsibility. She can advise, you know, she might be able to sort of indicate certain avenues that that a prime minister might want to consider, but she can't really step into that role that has been over the last few centuries, you know, kind of shawn up as that sort of is this head of state but somewhat powerless figure. It's a Yeah, it's an it's a very complicated position to be in.

A: In this episode, where were the creators of the coup, genuinely believe that they, they might get kind of almost the backing of the queen in this because the country in their mind has just gone to crap.  

E: Yeah. Well, they see Mountbatten as their way to her.

A: Exactly

E: They’re kind of using him.

A: Yes, completely. And that and they also see Mountbatten, I think, you know, somehow he was this very forceful representative of, I think, you know, it's combination of his military background. So he's his own man as a defender of Britain. But also he has this way into the royal family. And he was really seen by many people as this great leader who didn't really have a job anymore. So why not utilise him? But for him he knew the hurdle was how do we convince Queen Elizabeth to defy everything that she holds dear, and probably more so than than most monarchs, you know, she unquestionably would not participate in something like that.

E: And the notion as well that that whole coup world is is kind of instigated by a media mogul…

which is really interesting in terms of where we are now. 

A: Yeah. 

E: With, you know, media's influence over government and public perception and all that kind of stuff as well. It's quite interesting that this looks like it was almost the birth of that kind of idea as well.

A: Yes, absolutely. And, and a media mogul who was a huge Wilson labour supporter until he wasn't anymore, and that was in honesty, because he didn't get the knighthood, the peerage that he wanted sorry, not knighthood, he didn't get the peerage that he wanted. He wanted a hereditary peerage that he could pass on. And Wilson would only offer him a lifetime peerage. And that slight was almost enough, you know, you combine that with and by all means, you know newspaper moguls they're watching, they're interacting with the news in a different way. So they're interacting with what is happening in society quite differently in politics than the average person. But he just I think that personal slate started to really blind him to everything and it just became about taking Wilson down as far as we could, you know, gather just extraordinary. We don't often get a lot very heavy political episode because we often you know, we want to balance it with with the royal family. 

E: Yeah 

A: because Mountbatten sort of gives us a more outsider perspective, but he's still in the royal family, it allowed us to see a little bit more of that culture outside of the of the Royal Palace.

E: And then you also have this storyline with Elizabeth, you know, in terms of these wonderful conversations and experiences she's having with her kind of, you know, lifelong friend with Porchie kind of thing in terms of what could have been for her, I guess, if, yeah, things have been different.

A: So, at this point, we're really lucky and how these parallel storylines happen. She's losing miserably at the races and she's made a lot of money from from horse racing and got her out of the house, you know, into the country lifestyle that she wished she had had. If particularly if she even just if her father lived a little bit longer. She would have had more of that. And she realises under Pochie’s advisement, that things have to change. She's kept on all of her father’s staff. They're all in nearing 80 years old, they're going to retire she needs to go out and look and see how the world has advanced. 

And finally, I caught up with Jason Watkins. About how he approached the role of Prime Minister Harold Wilson In this episode

E: Episode Five, the the coup

J: News to me. I had no idea about a coup 

E: Same 

J: It's extraordinary. And there's Yeah, well, I did a bit of research about that. It's a very compelling, very compelling episode, extraordinary sequence of events. And he, I think Wilson was my view between the queen and Wilson, you know, he was hurt by it. And he shared that, and angry about what was going on in the background. I don't think he was surprised, necessarily, but he was very angry. And then she did end up supporting him, quite rightly.

E: Yeah. So give us a sort of brief history of where we are. Britain's in turmoil, he states in the country and the proposed coup.

J: In simple terms, painting a picture of it, you know, here's this working class man coming into power, you know, if you look at Harold McMillan and Douglas-Home doesn't feature but to me this, it's like somebody on the previous century, and there's all that old money. 

E: Yeah 

J: There's old money in England and UK. And there's money from the Americans to prop up certain gaps in the economy, this huge, he inherited a huge deficit. 800 million pounds, which is extraordinary amount at that time. And by deficit that means the difference between the money we get from selling our goods to what we buy in and it's a huge nightmare to inherit as an economist. 

E: Yeah. 

J: So as a rather brilliant economist, it hurt him doubly. 

E: Yeah

J: that he was unable to prop up the pound. And so it was a crisis of economics and a personal crisis. And he says that in the scene, you know, me personally, but what happened, I think, really was that, you know, the Americans, they didn't want to support us anymore because Wilson refused to support them over Vietnam. 

E: Yeah. 

J: He didn't want to fight. He did actually send some amount of arms to them. 

E: Yeah 

J: But there wasn't that political support. 

E: Yeah

J: the Americans wanted. So that was a problem. And I think the city had, they were sort of out to get him really. I mean, I mean, they were. And that's not to say that, you know, the city has perhaps changed in this completely different series of regulations, perhaps, who knows, but I mean, at that time, there was this old money, bowler-hatted, umbrellas, you know, you know, morning suit kind of city sensibility. So this sort of young, young upstart, he's like, he looks old because he was grey, but he was actually you know forties, forty-seven when he came to prominence, so he was relatively young and there he was, you know, erm but they despised him and they were worried.

E: Well, this was the interesting thing I found as well as the idea of maybe one of the first times that the media had tried to kind of get involved in politics in a way and and skew things I found that all quite interesting in terms of looking at where we are now. 

J: yes, it does have it does have parallels and then you've got, you know, Cecil King, who's the head of the mirror group producing all these headlines to undermine Harold Wilson and his government that kind of behind this, you think it's all just it's a kind of conspiracy theory all this kind of influence of us making us vote in certain ways. But it is extraordinary to think that in that time that there were wheels going on in the background that were very serious.

E: And where was Mountbatten in all of this because, you know, they were, by all accounts Mountbatten was a fan of Wilson's really wasn't he, there was a there was not friendship there but there was an understanding.

J: Yeah, I think so. I mean, it was a shock, wasn't it to him to be sacked, and that was pressure put on Wilson and he, that was a decision that was made and that must have been totally, and it made him pliable in terms of possibilities of becoming a leader of and it's brilliantly expressed in the episode, isn't it, about a you know, old, you know, colonial, the colonial spirit that obviously was part of his part of him and and he was the Viceroy of India, and you know, he did all that stuff, but I think it's very well documented in the episode that he was not completely convinced all the way along the line it wasn't something he was jumping at and that it was he knew that it was unconstitutional even though there is obviously a clear a clear legal loophole that he could explore. 

E: Yeah. 

J: But yeah and I think that that, that's what is so brilliant about The Crown is that it explores political events, huge political events from a personal point of view not just think when actors come in and approach, they're given these gems to explore

E: Yeah

J: There’s the time and there's the resources to do very well Jane Lapotaire you know, 

E: The scene between those two 

J: Ah is just extraordinary. It's warm and humorous and real and human 

E: It could be children.

J: Yeah

E: That's the thing is like there what? 80 year old you know when this but, you know, 10 year old sitting and chatting.

J: Yeah, and he's just come from this massive event. 

E: Yeah. 

J: And he's got a, he has a personal life with his his sibling.

Mountbatten and Princess Alice 

M: The four of us

A: What? 

M: The four of us…Look at us now…only two left. 

A: You’re left, not me. I’m on the way out.

M: Nonsense. 

A: There came a moment around the time I turned 70 when it dawned on me that I was no longer a participant, rather a spectator.

M: I've discovered that for myself

A: And it's just a matter of waiting and not getting in the way. I hear you have been getting in the way.

M: Who told you that?

A:There are no secrets in this place. Did you get a dressing down from our doughty Queen?

M: Yes, I did… What’s so funny?

A: Well that’s funny. The little girl admonishing the grand old Admiral of the Fleet. 

M: I'm glad it amuses you. Because the situation this country is facing is anything but amusing.

J: I think that's one of the things that connects the show to people because you know, they have big decisions, everyone has big decisions to make little decisions to make with their with their families.

E: I do like the way it's almost kind of a race to get to the Queen between Mountbatten and Wilson in a way. Mountbatten rings and she's busy and she goes oh tell him…and she assumes it’s him, it's just the way she 

J: Yeah yeah,

E: It's so great Yeah, it is great and but also Portchie in that, there's a moment whatever it is, it's in that room and she's had enough of trying, you know that Mountbattens badgering her get on the phone and of course in the midst of that whatever it is between them you know we're twisted again because we think it's Mountbatten and it's Wilson and he says that he's aware of it I mean it's just one thing after another that Peter is so good at structuring…

E: That's the thing about it as well as the tone is so unique, I think as well, you know, and there's this beautiful moment at the end of that of Episode Five between you know, it's, it takes you down one route this episode, but then it brings you this kiss between Elizabeth and Philip. And you never see that intimacy really, between them that often.

J: Well that's the joy of drama, isn't it? I mean, that's what drama can do. And did they kiss at the end? Who knows? But I mean, it is the spirit of their relationship.   And that's what Peter excels in. It's factually based, but he can shape something to give you a really wonderfully emotional connection. And what I loved about that moment was it just sort of echoed Matt and Claire’s, all those wonderful scenes that they have about struggling with a marriage and a marriage whether it's in the spotlight or not, but you it was a wonderful echo of that…

E: Yeah, it's beautiful. 

J: It’s the classic thing everyone talks about in television that each episode has its own little story in it and yet it stretches across a whole series.

E: The Queen almost has to kind of constantly walk this trapeze 

J: Yeah 

E: in terms of where she lands and reacts to things. You know, when there's chaos going on around her. She almost a lot of people will say she's emotionless but it's but it's about her duty, isn't it?

J: Yeah, I mean…Whether you feel the emotion, or you you, you display it, there are different things…but they were both leaders and could help each other in terms of how you are both a practical, practical in your day to day dealings either as a politician as a queen, but also as a figurehead. And as Wilson understood that more than more than any Prime Minister certainly up to that point, I mean, and Wilson was the first person to do that. He understood TV, he used it and, you know, the devaluation speech was not, you know, that was the most difficult thing but he you know, he quoted the Beatles, he understood that that one's image is important. And of course, with the queen, it is important, her image is important. The substance is very important as well, but there's there are, they could help each other in the way that they could be portrayed, and do their jobs better, I suppose.

E: Briliant. Thank you so much. 

J: Thank you. 

E: Can we sit for another hour and chat 

J: Yeah, just getting into my stride now!

E: (laughs)

I'm Edith Bowman and my special thanks to our guests on this episode, Christian Schwochow,  Jason Watkins and Annie Sulzberger. 

The Crown: The Official Podcast is produced by Netflix and Somethin Else, in association with Left Bank pictures. 

Join us next time when we go behind the scenes of Episode Six, Tywysop Cymru, which focuses on a young Prince Charles, as he struggles with who he is versus who his family expects to be.

PC: Isn’t there a similarity between my predicament and the Welsh? Am I listened to in this family?

Am I seen for who and what I am? No. Do I have a voice? 

QE: Rather too much of a voice for my liking. Not having a voice is something all of us have to live with. We have all made sacrifices and suppressed who we are. Some portion of our natural selves is always lost. 

PC: That is a choice. 

QE: It is not a choice. It is a duty.

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