The Crown: The Official Podcast

Before we get started with this episode of The Crown: The Official Podcast, please note that we’ve recorded this podcast series over the past year alongside the production of season five of The Crown. So, some of what you will hear was recorded before the passing of Her Majesty The Queen and the accession of His Majesty King Charles the 3rd.

Prince Charles: And how does one describe being Prince of Wales?

I mean it's hardly a job, still less, a vocation, simply a predicament….

Today, we'll be delving into episode five of season five, titled 'The Way Ahead'.

In the wake of Annus Horribilis, the Palace forms The Way Ahead group to ensure the Royal Family's position in the future. Prince Charles hopes that this will be an opportunity to forward his own agenda and make radical changes to the monarchy. But his hopes are dashed as a recording of a private phone conversation with Camilla creates humiliating headlines around the world. But will this crush him? Or will this steal his resolve to propel himself forward ever closer to the crown?

We’ll cover specific events and scenes that feature in this episode, so if you haven’t seen episode five yet, I suggest you do so now or very soon.

Peter Morgan: There's so much written about this family. And, on the one hand, it's hard to do them justice and be complex enough and rounded enough because we tend not to want to treat them in that way.

We tend to either want to treat them as sort of sacred objects that you bow, scrape and curtsy and walk backwards and talk gibberish in front of, or people that we just destroy with cartoons or satire or bitchiness or... And so actually reasonable debate, is sometimes quite hard and, and reasonable guess or conjecture about who they are as human beings.

Edith Bowman: And reasonable opportunity for an audience to not, you've always done this, where you don't judge them. You know, you kind of it's, it's never about a good guy, bad guy. It's always about the...

Peter Morgan: You give them a fair hearing. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Peter Morgan: Give them all a fair hearing because actually that way in, you know, Charles for example, I got a lot of stick for the way I write Charles from people close to him. But I, you know, I see him as someone who's unquestionably, all the things that his closest friends might suggest that he is, you know, unbelievably committed, complex, intelligent. He's a brilliant character to write because I think he, he's all the things that his detractors say, and he's all the things that his defenders say. I think that's wonderful. I think that makes him a much richer human being and a much more complex - I mean, the episode I'm probably most proud of in this season is number five, which is the one about being Prince of Wales because, spending a whole hour watching a film about what the predicament is of being the Prince of Wales. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Peter Morgan: And really giving it a fair hearing where you really line up all the, you know, all the accusations that could be raised or levelled against him, and then all the achievements, and you just sort of balance it out. And I found myself feeling very, very sympathetic towards him as a consequence and compassionate, really, because it's not an easy gig.  

Edith Bowman: I, I feel like I should greet you, Your Highness. Um, congratulations on...

Dominic West: If you wouldn't mind. 

Edith Bowman: Okay. I can't curtsy right now, but if I could, I, would.

Dominic West: I tell you... 

Edith Bowman: Go on. 

Dominic West: The first thing you notice about playing this part is how great it is when people bow to you.

I mean, no wonder Prince Charles insists on it. It's just fantastic. It really brightens your day. 

Edith Bowman: It's gonna be on your rider from now on in life; "must curtsy or bow in front of me". 

Um, listen, congratulations on this part, what was the appeal for you about taking on the role of Charles?

Dominic West: The bows and the curtsies. The cars, the clothes.

Edith Bowman: The Tweed? 

Dominic West: And the houses. Well, I, I suppose what appealed was well, two things. One was obviously the show, which I've loved from season one and then playing, playing Charles, who I really like. I, I, I do think him as a, as a genuine sort of hero or at least a force for good, and it's not often that I get to play good people. I, I generally play villains. 

Edith Bowman: And what were the conversations with, with Peter with regards to, you know, having that meeting with him and talking about agreeing to take on this part and where Charles was, the journey that he was going on in this particular season? 

Dominic West: We chatted a lot because it took me a while, I'm sure it does a lot of people, but it took me a long time to get over the fact that I don't look anything like him or sound anything like him or, or, uh, I'm not really anything like Prince Charles as my wife keeps saying, I'm too fat and old, but um.

Edith Bowman: How rude. 

Dominic West: I know, uh, but Peter and I did talk a lot about aspects of the marriage he was in that was failing and things like, "was he a good father to his sons?" And things like that, which I was keen that we saw the whole picture.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Dominic West: Because the whole picture hasn't really been seen. It's not something you see in, in the media. And certainly, at this time, they didn't really like Charles and they, they rather assumed he was an aloof and distant father. And I'd, I'd heard from people that he wasn't. And in fact, what's interesting about taking this part is that suddenly you talk to everyone about Prince Charles and a lot of, he's met more people probably than except for Princess Anne and the Queen, he's, he's met more people probably than any, certainly more than any politician.

That's, what's amazing about his role. Uh, and so you meet a lot of people who've met him and every single one spoke about how warm he was and how you know, seriously, he took his role.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Dominic West: And, and his, and his causes that he champions. It's much harder for a, a dramatist not to have a villain.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Dominic West: Not to have a, not to have a...

Edith Bowman: Clear villain. Yeah.

Dominic West: Yeah. Someone you can sort of put the blame on. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Dominic West: And and demonise. But it's much more interesting when you see, you know, everyone has villainous aspects as well as heroic aspects.

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Dominic West: And that's where Peter's always gone. And, and I think in collaboration with his actors and, and everyone else who works on, on the show, but, he's interested in not making judgements in, in, in seeing what is that like for an ordinary human being?

Edith Bowman: Um, you mentioned Josh. I mean, Josh was fantastic in the last two seasons...

Dominic West: He was alright. 

Edith Bowman: ...Of 'The Crown'. 

Dominic West: I dunno why everyone makes such a fuss, about him.

Edith Bowman: But we...

Dominic West: Alright! 

Edith Bowman: We're, we're at a different Charles. We're at a different point in his life. We're in a different place. And, and it's interesting because we really feel that, I really feel that through your performance, in terms of you kind of feel the weight, you feel the baggage and you feel the kind of you trying to break through, he's trying to find his path, find his voice, and you kind of feel the drive there in your performance. That's what I kind of really get from that. 

Dominic West: What's interesting about this time of his life is that he's, he's at the sort of prime of his life. He's in his late forties and he's, this is really when he should be King. Uh, he's still energy. He's still got youth. He's still got vision and, and vigour. So, he's at the prime of his life, but he's also at the nadir, emotionally of his life.

His, his marriage has fallen apart and his relationship with his mother is, you know, incredibly complicated. And for a man of middle age to still be totally reliant on your mother, and even worse, on your mother's death, to be something, to be something that is going, the only time that you're going to fulfil your destiny, it's, it's a bizarre situation to be in.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. Where did your journey to find an, your version of Charles start? 

Dominic West: I went to Cornwall actually, I, somewhere to go uh.

Edith Bowman: Lovely part of the world. 

Dominic West: He's Duke of Cornwall and, uh, he's um, owns a large part of it. And, uh, it was just after I think lockdown was…we were just coming outta lockdown, so Cornwall wasn't overrun with people, which is another good thing.

Uh, and I rang up, he has an estate down there, or he rescued this house down there where you can rent a cottage or rent several cottages. Incredibly beautiful place, near Lostwithiel, and I've got five kids I needed to, I needed to get away to concentrate. And so I went down there for a week. 

It's very difficult, that's the thing about 'The Crown', except for Diana, actually she, who did these personal interviews on tape. It's very hard to, to hear any of the Royals, certainly Charles, uh, in private, they don't talk in private obviously. We know their public persona, but we don't know their private. And so all I really had to go on was this, he, he narrates his book called 'Harmony'.

So, so you get nine hours of him. I got nine hours of him narrating his book, which is all done in his public persona, but he gets tired, narrating it as, as I've narrated books and it gets tiring.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Dominic West: And when he gets tired, it then became much more... the sort of public persona fell away. And you could, you could hear his sort of tones of his, of what he might be in private. 

Edith Bowman: 'The Crown' has this amazing support network of, you know, these, I mean, we sat here in Diana's.

Dominic West: Kensington Palace. 

Edith Bowman: Kensington Palace, in her drawing room, I believe. 

Dominic West: Yes. 

Edith Bowman: It's kind of bonkers to kind of focus on our chat, cause there's so much going on in this room. But we have this, we have the makeup department, we have the costume, we have the research department. How important were all those different areas for you in your portrayal of Charles?

Dominic West: Well, I suppose the first excitement was the research department because, I I'm really interested in, in Charles's life and I, I really, and the Royals. I'm, I, I always have been it's fascinating. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Dominic West: And so, I immediately got onto the research department and say, "come on, what's the, what's the news?"

Edith Bowman: Send me stuff.

Dominic West: "What's the stuff?" And, uh, they did have some quite interesting stuff I have to say, but I don't think they're allowed to publish a lot of it. But, uh, not only have you got a great dramatist in Peter, but a great dramatist with a huge backup in terms of his research. So, you know, this is obviously a fiction, but it's not that fictional.

So that was the first really interesting thing. Then, then I talked to Polly who, who does movement and William, who does the, who does the voice. They'd certainly done Josh. I, I, I knew I was in good hands. I wasn't sure if they were in good, they were in good hands with me.

But, uh, I did watch avidly, whatever, whenever Josh said had any tips about playing Prince Charles, I go, you know, and he had great tips, you know, ears and closing your mouth so when you speak and.

Edith Bowman: It's uncanny.

Dominic West: I remember Kate who is head of hair and makeup saying to me, "Look when… Prince Charles has such a distinctive hairstyle, created by his nanny when he was three that, uh, and unchanged since then, that once people see that they will buy you. They'll accept you as him. And, uh, I didn't believe her at the time, but I, it was, it was encouraging.

And as long as I'm shot from the back, I look just like Prince Charles cuz of the hair.

Edith Bowman: Did she have the measuring tape out for the parting?

Dominic West: Yes, I think pretty much. And we put plumpers in for the ears. 

Edith Bowman: Did you?

Dominic West: You know, put these little, I dunno if they work, but they, they certainly hurt, but they, uh, yeah, we sort of try and put the ears out.

Edith Bowman: With this particular episode, we have this, um, flashback to, uh, to 1989 to the telephone call, which is really, it's it's, you know, the dramatization of this, but the way it's been shot and the way it's been edited, and stuff is, is really wonderful. We're in a state now with this show where we're in, we're in our own memories now, you know, we're in events that, you know, it’s a dramatization, but obviously there are events that happened that are within the show that for some of us, we remember. We remember it happening. Do you remember? 

Dominic West: Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: Camillagate and the...

Dominic West: Tampaxgate. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Dominic West: Very much. Yeah. No, I remember it really well and probably much like everyone else as, as being a rather tawdry, deeply embarrassing, sleazy thing. And we had on set, we had the tabloid papers at that time and, and every single one of them published a tot- transcript of the whole thing. What was really extraordinary was, cuz a few people have asked me, you know, "you're not gonna do Tampongate are you?" And you know, the, the Italians still call Prince Charles 'Principe Tamponnichi', Little Tampon Prince? Anyway, he...

Edith Bowman: It's like 30 years later?

Dominic West: I know, and this is what he's known for. What became apparent in the playing of it, and the way Peter's written it, although Peter pretty much just transcribed what was said, you suddenly saw it from their point of view as this middle-aged couple deeply in love having the whole world listen to an intimate phone conversation. I mean, you just imagine what that's like, just how violating that is. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Dominic West: And how any one of us had any intimate conversation transcribed into the Mirror newspaper. It would just be utterly soul destroying. It would destroy you. What we found really in the playing was the warmth and the tenderness and how, how that was a, a real violation of that.

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Dominic West: And how awful that must have felt. I mean, Camilla - when you see it - Camilla's sort of saying saucy things about her knickers and stuff. And he keeps sort of saying really not very saucy things about...

Edith Bowman: It's very childlike. 

Dominic West: "God, I, end up as a Tampax or something," you go, "oh God, please Charles." So...

Edith Bowman: But what it does...

Dominic West: But it's sort of sweet, it's quite hard and awkward and…

Edith Bowman: But what it says, what it gives us is such an insight into the history and the comfortableness of these two individuals. 

Dominic West: Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: And this is a relationship that has been going on for years, you know. There it's, his true love and it's a conversation that he would never have had that kind of conversation with Diana.

Dominic West: No. 

Edith Bowman: And so you, it tells you so much about...

Dominic West: Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: Their relationship and the history of their relationship, I think. 

Dominic West: Yeah. It's, it's genuine intimacy that's used against him. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. And it's, and, and I think it's such a clever way to tell that in as a juxtaposition to what's going on with him and, and Diana, you know, and how kind of cold that relationship has become and how distant they are. And...

Dominic West: He does that a lot, Peter, this season, is, is you juxtapose, you know, the tragedy of their failed marriage between these two people who er, should never have married really. And, and then, and then, his genuine feelings for, for someone he does love. I mean, it's not like he's like a lot of people in public life, you know, nobody loves them.

He, he, he genuinely has a, a real fairy tale romance. It's just not the fairy tale romance that that's been confected for public consumption.

…Camilla: Are you still in Cheshire? 

Prince Charles: I am. Yeah. Missing you terribly.

Camilla: Back soon though my darling….

Dominic West: So with Olivia, we who I'd met before, but not really, she's wonderfully warm and, and funny. 

Edith Bowman: Ah yes the wonderful Olivia Williams who plays Camilla in this season.

Dominic West: Yes. She had to wear two bras because Camilla's got a good bust, like all the Royal women, actually. You sew one bra filled with bean bags and she'd come in every morning and go, "go on, give them a squeeze," and that was sort of, that was sort of the icebreaker.

Edith Bowman: That's what Charles, I imagine them doing in real life. Probably shouldn't say that. But I do. 

Dominic West: What, what was staggering in, in research was how much vitriol Camilla got, how I mean and still gets, but she, she really had a hard time at this time. People hated her, threw buns at her in Waitrose and, you know, worse things. Who deserves that? Nobody deserves the sort of vitriol she got.

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Dominic West: And, uh, what that does to you. And, um, I think you can only really feel sympathy when you look into that. And, and so it helped that we both had, we both felt enormous sympathy for our characters, I think. 

Prince Charles: I suppose one has to be aware of it in the room. Just feel one's way along with it, if you know what I mean. 

Camilla: You're awfully good at feeling your way along. 

Prince Charles: Stop it. 

Edith Bowman: We'll hear more from Dominic West later in the podcast. But before that, I wanted to find out about re-examining the infamous phone call in this episode. So first it's over to Annie Sulzberger for our new feature to answer the big question: 

How did the conversation get recorded and did Charles and Camilla really say that?

Annie Sulzberger: Yes, they did. It’s likely that if Charles had just spoken on a landline, none of this would've happened.

This is back in the early days, this is 1989, very early days of mobile phones and they were very easy to hack. You could hear them on any ham radio. There are people out in the world whose hobby it is to turn a dial and listen for conversations over the airwaves essentially. We know very little about this guy, ‘cause he's never come out and said it, but we know he's from Liverpool and that after eating a curry and having a pint, he went to his like sort of house shed and turned on this new device that he had just bought, which is called an electronic homing device. It's a ham radio, picks up cell signals.

Charles was in Chester and is really close to a cell tower. So it was very easy to pick up the conversation. And as we show, he's reading a speech and as the speech goes on, he recognizes the voice this hand operator and he goes, "oh my God, Prince Charles," so he hits record. And the speech becomes the longing, slightly sexual conversation that we know it to be. The newspapers chose to sort of cut away a lot of things and just focus on, "oh my God, I can't believe he said he wants to be a tampon." But the mention of a tampon, which is the most famous section of that speech. It's so different, when you hear the whole context. I'm actually very proud of us for sticking to our guns and putting this in the show because we're actually trying to rehabilitate that moment, which is: that comes after very loving, longing conversation where they start to joke.

It's just a funny moment between two very in love, people who are missing each other. And that context, when you read it, the whole thing, and we do a lot of it. It just becomes an incredibly different tone to that section.

Edith Bowman: How did you want to portray this? And how did you, what did you feel was the important nature of portraying this part of this? You know, we've talked about, uh, uh, love, affair and love affair at a certain age.

And this was something that was important to you in terms of how you wanted to portray this story and this moment with Charles and Camilla and, and what happened with that? So talk about the viewpoint of this episode, I guess.

May el-Toukhy: Yeah. So part of episode five contains a conversation between, the conversation between Charles and, and Camilla that apparently was in 1989 and got published in ‘93.

So I think for me, reading that transcript and reading the research material on on that conversation, I became incredibly indignated actually. And I found that it was, it's so unjust in a way that it's not okay to publish stuff like that. And I know that we, we are looking through a 2022 glasses or like gaze of the now, and a lot has changed since then. But what I wanted to do or my ambition with that storyline was to basically recreate the narrative of it. I think a lot of people, even though they have not heard the tape or they have not listened or they have not read the transcript, they think it's something else than what it actually is.

When I dived into the material, for me, it's a conversation between two people who are in love and know each other really well, and they're very smart and witty and they have their own language together. And I don't find that it's very far away from conversations I potentially could have myself or people I know could have. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

May el-Toukhy: And of course I stand on the shoulders of the text, fantastic text that Peter wrote. But it was something that there's so many ways that you could shoot a sequence like that. And we opted to shoot it in a way where it's sincere, and intimate and truthful. That's been my ambition all along and it means a lot. It means a lot to me that, that I got to do that because it's about time.

We would strive generally on the show, when we have phone calls to have, if we are shooting, um, many weeks apart, so if we're shooting Olivia in week one and Dominic in week eight, then to have the other person present either in a room next door or on the phone. So that we get that sense of authenticity because there's so much going on on a film set and it's so hard to mirror intimacy in a situation that is everything but intimate.

That's something that I also spoke to, um, the cinematographer about how to create that, that intimacy and how it's also by far, I think the closest closeups of this season. 

…Camilla: Oh, darling.

Prince Charles: Night.

Edith Bowman: There's a real clear difference I think as well, particularly in this episode between, visually, between the difference between Charles' world and the world of Elizabeth and her courtiers as well. Cause she's been in this bubble for so long of kind of how things have to be. Even her world is like that I think. Whereas Charles is, I dunno, it just feels more human and real and warm.

May el-Toukhy: Yeah, so they want the same thing. They want to preserve the crown, basically. But how to preserve the crown? Uh, I think Charles, he, he, in this episode, he strives to, thinks it's important to, to modernise, to create a sense that there's room for everyone, multiple faiths, people regardless of class and so on and so forth.

And Elizabeth wants to preserve the crown as well, but she believes that it's preserving the crown is... The way to go is to keep things as they are in order to bring stability and comfort in times of distress. So that the crown is an object that is inanimate, never changeable. And that there's a comfort in that for, for a nation. And so it's, it's those two views that are bumping up against each other in the episode. And it's, uh, it's an interesting, I find that it's an interesting conflict because both are true, maybe, you know? Uh, and so that's where it gets interesting in, in fiction and in drama, that's where the drama is.

I believe that when both sides talk truthfully and has, has a point that's an interesting place to be as a storyteller. And that's what we do in this episode among other things.

Edith Bowman: It was interesting, you're talking about kind of, you know, Charles kind of feels like change is needed. And one of the things, the decision that he makes is to do the Dimbleby interview.

May el-Toukhy: Yes. 

Edith Bowman: And I just wanted to talk a little bit about, um, You know, recreating that and how you chose to do that as well. 

May el-Toukhy: Yeah. So the Dimbleby interview was actually shot over 18 months, I think, around 18 months. And they had, uh, 180 hours of, of footage. And so, um, it was a program that...

Edith Bowman: Wow. 

May el-Toukhy: Yeah. So it was a long program. And in our version, it's a segment of the full Dimbleby program. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

May el-Toukhy: And we introduced, um, BETA SP, which is like the old format that you shot TV in the nineties. And that gave a real flavour, so many, many of the scenes, both in, in episode four and five, where we are recreating and rethinking, or reimagining historical, actual events, we would have a beta...

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

May el-Toukhy: Camera there, which is the small where you can, you know, if it, if people are too far away, they just look like dots uh, with no faces.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

May el-Toukhy: And, and then our real camera, that was the same thing with the Dimbleby interview. It's an incredibly long stretch of text. I think it was eight pages long of dialogue, and that's a long time and, and we just... Dominic and I discussed when you're doing scenes like that, I find it very useful to have a conversation with the actors about what gives them the best ability or the best possibility of delivering whatever it is that we want them to.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

May el-Toukhy: And so we decided to do many, many long stretch, so it's like 10 or 12 minutes takes. And then eventually we could chop up stuff if there was something that we wanted to, to investigate further or something else we needed, or... and then obviously we both watched the interview and tried to recreate some of the mannerisms and ways of Charles, but that having said that, I think it's very important that, and that's also something that I spoke a lot with Dominic and maybe because we were both new in class together, but that there's a fine line between being, making an impersonation and making an interpretation. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

May el-Toukhy: And so how to find that. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

May el-Toukhy: And so that's, it's hard to talk about sitting around a desk or across each other on a desk, you, it's something you just have to investigate while you're shooting and while you're doing the scenes. When is it too much? And when is it too little? And when does it become? And the fantastic thing is that on this show that we have the most amazing specialists in every department, so we have voice coaches and movement coaches and etiquette coaches, and yeah. So you never feel lonely.

In the way ahead, we see Charles wrestling with relationships and his role as Prince of Wales, both of which are complex and tangled up together. He's determined to make changes to the Royal system and secure his future kingship, as well as his own happiness. Despite hoping that The Way Ahead group would offer a chance for greater influence, the Camillagate scandal and his strained relationship with his parents catches up with him.

There's a heart-breaking scene, where they're at a meeting and Philip really lays into Charles. Dominic, what was that scene like to film?

Dominic West: I mean, that was pretty much the only scene I get with Jonathan as Prince Philip and, and it was annihilating. I mean, it was, he really gets a strip torn off him, and he's talking about the very core of his ambition for, for, and what he believes has to happen to the monarchy.

If these changes aren't made, then when you die, mum, they're not gonna want me. They're not gonna want the, a monarchy. We have to do this now and for that to be stamped out so comprehensively by his father, to the point where he's humiliated enough to have to leave the room, uh, in front of all these courtiers and the rest of his family, that was a very, very affecting scene. I, I couldn't talk to Jonathan for days afterwards. 

Edith Bowman: Oh... 

Dominic West: No. I mean, he, he was brilliant. And what was interesting was just before, you know, was Prince Phillip's actual funeral to see how moved Charles was and how much he loved his dad. You know, another fascinating tension between your love of your parent and your frustration with your parents.

Prince Philip: What's that? Speak up. 

Prince Charles: Better death than dishonor.

Prince Philip: A sentiment on which you would do well to reflect.

Edith Bowman: Despite his struggles with the rest of the family, something that shines through in this is the sibling support between Prince Charles and Princess Anne. Dominic, I just love the relationship between Charles and Anne.

Dominic West: Yeah, it's great. 

Edith Bowman: It feels real and it feels...

Dominic West: It does feel real. Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: Affectionate and it feels loving. 

Dominic West: Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: Which is one of the few, I think. 

Dominic West: Yeah. She's sort of the only person who, who understands his position. And, and…

Edith Bowman: Love Anne.

Dominic West: Yeah. I mean, she's an Olympic champion, you know, she's tough and hugely, uh, committed and, you know, have you seen her on Parkinson? There's an interview on Parkinson, her talking about when she nearly got shot? "Well, I him to get the hell off me, whatever," you know, you were going, "geez, she's hard. Cuz she's badass." 

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Edith Bowman: I feel there's a real confidence that Charles has in this particular episode, he's found this confidence from somewhere he's kind of determined. He's, you know, he wants to make a difference, even though he's kind of in the, you know, he's in the wings waiting, he's gonna stand up for the woman he loves, he's gonna stand up for his position, what he can do. Where do you think he found in Peter's writing? Where do you think he found that confidence?

Dominic West: I, I suppose that's a big part of the Camilla story is, is that she gave him the, the support that he needed, that he wasn't getting from his wife or his mother.

It's quite a tragic life, Charles. And in one, one of the tragedies, I think is that at this point, this is when he should have been King. you know, he must have been thinking, "I, I, I've got to set up a, a separate court here. I've got to advance my agenda because I'm not gonna be King anytime soon. And while I've got the energy, I've got to, I've gotta try and do something about what needs to happen," because I think he cares very deeply about the, "how is the monarchy relevant? Or why do we have a monarchy? What's the point of it? Where can the monarchy help that nothing else can?" And, and I think there are arguments both ways on that, and, and I think he very much felt, and, and it's true that he, he could give voice to people that politicians couldn't and that he talked, has talked to more people and met more people than any politician ever would.

Edith Bowman: And I love how a lot of those people that he met was through Prince's Trust. And I love that it's included in the show.

Dominic West: It's what makes him a hero. I think, I think the Prince's Trust is the most amazing organisation and, and it's done, it's been a force for good in this country. It's a real achievement and it, and it's helping exactly the people he should be helping as future King; disadvantaged young people, and it's helped so many people. I've met a lot of them, quite hard to dramatize a good person doing good works, it's not very interesting. Um, it's much more easy to, to dramatize a bad person doing bad things. 

Edith Bowman: One of the things I absolutely love about The Princes Trust part of the episode at the end is that, well we also see Charles going for it and breakdancing with all the young people, which recreated a real moment. It’s such a a hilarious light moment at the end, I love it! 

Dominic West: You see everything in him in that break dance.

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Dominic West: Because he's, it's excruciating embarrassed. He's a very private man in a, you know, another moment of public humiliation, but he sort of goes for it cuz he's, he's sort of, he's sort of like that he sort of, you know, has he very much accepts a challenge and goes for it and fails spectacularly, but you can't help loving him.

Edith Bowman: How do you play that? Because you're playing it as him, you're not playing it as you, so you've gotta find his... 

Dominic West: Well, I, I copied the moves. 

Edith Bowman: Guess it's on 

Dominic West: tape?

He does the most... It's on tape. It's on YouTube and you can't believe the moves he pulls and they're totally nothing to do with the music. So I just learned the moves and they're quite hard. It took, you know, it took me several sessions to get the moves, cuz they're difficult. 

Edith Bowman: Again, it's another way of telling us without dialogue sometimes. It tells us so much about the character.

Dominic West: Yeah. There's so much conflict, and so much tension between the public perception and, and the private reality. And he's very much battling with, with an image as a sort of fud-, out of touch, weird fuddyduddy. When in reality, he was spending every day meeting people and listening to their problems. 

Edith Bowman: It must be in the back of all of your minds though, in a way, because we kind of know the tragedy that unfolds, you know, as we get to that point where, where Diana passes. Or do you try not think about it?

Dominic West: I suppose it's just obvious, isn't it, now you mention it. But I, don't think it came into it really. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Dominic West: It wasn't really something you could anticipate and... In fact it did in, in one way, I think I had to keep reminding myself that at this point, well, certainly before they were publicly separated, there was no hope for him. He was in a marriage that was dead to a woman who couldn't stick him and he couldn't stick her, and he was not gonna be allowed to divorce.

And he was not gonna be able to be with a woman he loved and what that must do to you. He was at a very low point in this and his subsequent happiness now, you have to sort of put to the back of your mind.

Edith Bowman: I'm Edith Bowman and my special thanks to our guests on this episode, Peter Morgan, Annie Sulzberger, May el-Toukhy, and Dominic West. 'The Crown: The Official Podcast' is produced by Netflix and Somethin' Else, in association with Left Bank Pictures. 

Join us next time, when we go behind the scenes of episode six of season five, called 'Ipatiev House.'

As Communism falls in Russia, the Queen hopes to resolve a tragic chapter in Royal history for her ancestors, as well as Prince Philip's. But with a growing distance in their marriage, is a shared goal and a historic trip to Russia enough to bring she and Philip together?