The Crown: The Official Podcast

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A: I heard she was insisting on taking the baby with them on the tour… 

Q: On what? The tour was a triumph. 

I should probably ask Charles and Diana to come and see me. This tour is too important.

Series intro

Welcome to the Crown, the official podcast. I'm Edith Bowman, and this show will follow the fourth season of the Netflix original series The Crown episode by episode, taking you behind the scenes, speaking with many of the talented people involved and diving deep into the stories. 

Episode intro

Today, we're talking about episode six, titled ‘Terra Nullius’. The year is 1983 and two years into their marriage Charles and Diana sent on a six week tour of Australia and New Zealand. It's Diana's last official Royal tour overseas as the Princess Wales and at her insistence, a 9 month old Prince William is brought along. In the wilderness of Australia, away from prying eyes, Charles and Diana rekindle, their relationship. But how long will it last? 

We’ll cover specific events and scenes that feature in this episode. So if you haven't watched episode six yet, I suggest you do it now, or very soon.

Edith v/o

Coming up later, we will hear from Josh O'Connor who plays Prince Charles.

Clip from Josh

No one was really confronting the fact that without Mountbatten, he has no leader in his life.

E: Yeah

JC: No one really confronted the fact that he couldn't be with the woman he loved.

Edith v/o

We will also hear from locations manager Mark Wallege 

Clip from Mark

I mean, I always give the example of the Queens walk to the audience room. She's actually walking through about four or five different locations, but you would never know if you're the normal viewer because you know, starts at Lancaster house, walks through a couple of rooms in Wilton and ends up at Rowton. So yeah, there's that kind of..

E: Wow!

MW: Yeah.

Edith v/o

But first I linked up virtually with the director of this episode, Julian Jarrold. Now Julian last worked on the show in season one. So I asked him what it was like coming back for season four…

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Julian Jarrold: It was very different because the first season I was obviously in, at the very beginning and nobody quite knew what we were doing, including me, probably, and what the crown was and how it fit together and the tone of it.

And we had this fantastic rehearsal period where all the actors were in the same room at the same time trying to figure it out. And I had such a good time on it. I was slightly wary about coming back because I just thought, Oh, it'll never be so good. And obviously coming back, you're stepping into something that's an incredibly well oiled machine, completely new set of actors.

And so obviously you've got to sort of reprogram yourself to get that, but I think it w, actually was incredibly exciting to see the queen and Prince Phillip in middle age and then to tackle the youngsters as they come through, especially with new actresses like Emma Corrin and Josh O'Connor.

Julian: Well, the, Australians have Just had an election, and Charles is sent over as a tour of Australia.

And in his life, obviously he's married, but his relationship with Diana at this point is fairly dysfunctional. She's suffering from bulimia so it's a slightly daunting prospect when the two of them get on the plane, and the Queen thinks it's important that he gets his chance in the sun, but at the same time, nobody else in the Royal family is really addressing the fact that these two could implode.

I wanted to wish you best luck and asked Sir Sonny to join us today…

… as husband and wife, we would wish the same for you.

Edith: What I thought was really interesting as well as almost the, the landscape of where they are almost as a reflection of their relationship.

Julian: Yeah. From the research as well there was a sense that Charles really loved Australia. He went there as a teenager. He went there quite a lot and he sort of felt slightly freer there than he did in England, where the whole weight of the, what you had to do and how you had to behave was, was so much stronger.

Because I still think you’re gorgeous…

…a hundred decibels louder than anything you ever got, chew on that! Choke on that!

It was a sort of key scene, really in the whole episode that very long scene, which we shot top to bottom generally in a number of takes and the way that both Josh and Emma go from distrust to understanding to coming together is really wonderful.

I think a great piece of acting from both of them. 

Edith: It’s a really, really moving and, and powerful scene. And then we kind of move forward and that dance that they have at the gala. And even though we know this, this story, and we knew the tragic outcome of this, of these two individuals, you still watch it and you still have that glimmer of hope is watching it.  And you can see that there was something there and that dance scene, as well as, as I guess, some of the happiest times that we get to see them in.

Absolutely. Yes this was a real beacon of hope for them. And yes, there is the moment of hope. You sort of feel maybe if they'd stayed in Australia somehow, all would have been different? You know, obviously, the turning point comes with Diana getting too much attention, which starts to gnaw away at Charles and the insecurities and all that. And the conflicts begin again. So that's the tragedy.

Edith: Do you think it's jealousy or insecurity or a combination of many things?

Julian: Personally insecurity I think, I mean, in that big scene, they do talk about that sense of wanting security and attention. And that to me comes out of insecurity. And as Diana herself suggests, it's perhaps to do with upbringing and the pressures of being in the position that he's in. It's a terrible tragedy, especially at that point in his life when he needed to do it I think. 

Yes, absolutely. And within that, is this debate or theme about should and could the monarchy modernize, should it wear its heart on its sleeve, should it touch and feel and hug crowds and people, or should it have this slightly colder, more removed, enigmatic quality that's, that's kind of been its mainstay for however long. And obviously Diana coming in there, it's like the pebble in the water that changes things. And on the family side, it's sort of interested in digs into what, how you bring up your children and how you emotionally relate to your children and there’s rather a good line at the end when the queen is appalled for being hugged. Um, and I'm sure it'll have resonance for both types of families when they watch it, those who are very emotionally engaged and those who are perhaps a bit more traditional

You've seen how the crowd responded to me in Australia…

…Don't push me away. Mumma.

Edith: Diana knows that that the queen wants this marriage to work. 

J: Yeah. 

E: It's an interesting dynamic, isn't it? 

J: It is. And the queens wary of her and wary of her wearing her heart on her sleeve and is aware that she's been incredibly successful. I think she would be aware of Charles’s angst over that. And to be fair to Charles he was given this job to do, to go out there.

E:  For you as a director getting to work with Olivia and Emma on this particular scene. What were the conversations that you had with Olivia and Emma and whilst you were filming it as well?

J:  We had a little bit of rehearsal time beforehand and, Olivia likes to, obviously she does her own preparation and she likes to react in the moment.

E: It's so good to them that just stoney coldness that when Diana hugs her and she just doesn't hug her, but there's nothing worse than not being hugged back. 

J: Yes. And I, interestingly, I think Olivia, she offered up even colder performance at one point

E: Wow! 

J: This one I thought was the most appropriate.

Edith v/o

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Mark: We deal with specifically with finding and trying to give the director, the designer, their vision, if you like working within the scripts. And it's a case of hunting those locations down, making sure that those guys are happy with them. And then the logistical side kicks in. Once we've done the creative side, the logistical side is making sure that those locations that we're at are happy with what we're doing.

It's a massive show. So a lot of the time we're sort of going above and beyond to make sure that everyone's happy in these places. 

E: Well it’s an international affair really isn't it. It's not just a case of scouting Balmoral, there's a, there's a lot of different places over the four seasons so far.

M: Absolutely. Although the foreign aspects are taken over by location teams in those countries, which is fantastic, we have enough work to do over here. 

E: When you're trying to replicate, I guess a lot of these big regal kind of settings, be it somewhere like Windsor Castle or, you know, we talk about Balmoral as well,  where do you start with something like that? Because I know that we're very lucky in the British Isles, we have these incredibly stately homes and beautiful buildings around every corner really

Edith: Can we talk specifically about season four, run us through some of the main locations that you had to work hard to find. 

M: Yeah, we had a couple of changes this year. I think Pete's, I think Morgan’s original vision was that although the cast were changing every two seasons, the locations wre going to remain the same, but unfortunately there was a couple of established locations this year that we couldn't go back to.

And it worked for everyone, like all four directors, all the blocks had to go there. And I think everyone was happy with that. So they were the big challenges this season was finding those new locations that would everyone be happy with.

E: Yeah. And then you've got the tour of Australia, which is obviously a big part of season four, but not going to Australia obviously itself to do it.  And finding replications of places that basically look like those places.

M: Yeah.

E: I know that you talk about, you have local location managers who look after that, but I imagine you're still, you gotta be involved in getting to those places to work out who you're going to work with and where. 

So for Australia example, we use Kensington town hall. Fantastically is this kind of architecture that you would readily believe is an Australia. For the New Zealand tour, we use Bisley camp in Surrey, which is a shooting club. And it's got all these colonial buildings. It's basically set up as Australian shooters.

You’ve got New Zealand, marksman, Canadian marksman, and they actually physically bring their own shooting buildings from their countries and build them on this Bisley camp.

E: Wow! 

M: So when you look at it, you, you could be in Canada or you could be in Australia and in those kinds of colonial type fairs.   So we'd used that previously, with Julian and he wanted to go back then it just worked perfectly. So yeah. 

Edith: How did you replicate Ayres rock? 
M: I’ve got no idea (LAUGHS). The VFX department obviously have, do a marvellous job

E: Amazing job, yeah yeah. 

Edith: Are there certain departments that you particularly collaborate with? Cause I guess there's got to be a seamless link isn't there between the exterior's that you're shooting to sometimes the interiors may well be done within studio, so that's got to be a seamless thing hasn't it as well. 

M: Yeah. I mean, I always give the example of the Queens walk to the audience room. She's she's actually walking through about four or five different locations, but you would never know if you're the normal viewer because she starts at Lancaster house, walks through a couple of rooms in Wilton and ends up in Rowton, so- 

E: Wow. 

M: Yeah. (Laughs)

E: I didn't know that. That's amazing.

Edith: So in our mind, she's just walking through Buckingham Palace, but in reality, she's, run us through that again, she's doing what she's walking from?

M: She might start at Lancaster house up the staircase. Walk along the corridor into a room that would be Wilton house and along out of one door into the audience room, which is actually in Rowton.

Edith: That's unbelievable. I wanted to ask as well, because you have this wonderful journey through time as well. And whether it makes any difference to you in terms of the era, does it make it easier that we're coming more up to date?

Mark: I suppose it does make it easier. Contemporary filming is a bit easier than trying to find the period stuff. Although we're lucky with London and the UK in general for period locations, because so much of it still exists in terms of things like clearance and modern cars being moved and all that kind of stuff. Just on the logistical side of things, it's easier to do contemporary filming, but, and then you're obviously looking in certain areas of London for period stuff.

Then you're looking at other areas for modern day stuff, so yeah it keeps it interesting.  

Edith: You must love it though the fact that you've been there, you know, since the start? 

Mark: Oh yeah, great show to work on great people, the producers are great. It's just one of those shows where you just, you just count yourself lucky every day really, honestly, that you can go to work on the Crown. It's brilliant.

Edith v/o

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Josh: I mean, I did some research on a few things, and I looked into the tour in Australia and read an awful lot of kind of books about Charles and Diana, from Diana's perspective and Charles’s perspective. But after a period, just as last season, I think I felt more confident in the knowledge. So last season I had a decision to make. It was the first time I’d properly played someone real. I had this period in the lead up going, am I going to try and replicate that person?

And go, how does his voice change, or how does his physique change? I spent more time looking at Tobias and going, how's Tobias's voice in comparison to Matt's performance and 

E: Yeah

J: It got lower and gravelly and there's more kind of nasal now to it. And I suddenly thought, okay. So it'd be interesting to see how maybe I could develop Charles’ voice in that sense and see the influence of his father that rather than an influence of a YouTube video I found of him. So I think, I guess it's kind of, you're gleaning information from the world we've created as opposed to the world that exists. And that felt more exciting to me, more interesting, I guess.

E: Can we talk a little bit about Emma? 

J: Mmm what a little star!

E: Because, I mean, my jaw dropped when I saw the first scene with her.

J: Yeah, I know. It's really spooky and it's still spooky for me. You know, I spent so much time with her and yeah, I yet still get spooked out. 

E: What was your reaction when you first met her? 

J: I first met her because we were actually casting Camilla and a very close friend of mine said, my friends coming in to audition for Camilla tomorrow, and I had a list of who was auditioning and I was like, mate she's lying to you. She's not coming in for Camilla, but she wasn't on the list. So I came in the next day and to read with all these Camillas, potential Camillas, yeah I know, worrying. Um, and there was this girl sat on the sofa.

E: Wow. 

J: It’s Diana! She was just pulled in as someone to read the lines for Diana. And everyone was just like, who is this girl? She’d done like one or two jobs and also that's not to take away, you know, her life, her real life likeness to Diana doesn't take away from her performance, which is also extraordinary.

E: Absolutely. 

J: For me, it's been like a treat because all that work on research and looking at their relationship and she's just got it down. It's like she breathes it. So. Yeah. She's really sensa-, you know, she's going to be a star. 

E: I mean, I imagine similarly with you, she's so young she doesn't really remember or know, didn't personally experience that whole kind of thing. So to come in with none of that baggage is such a brilliant thing I think. 

Josh: I think someone coming from total purity and, and just seeing

The tale of a princess who is destroyed by the kind of media and by the spotlight, is really helpful because also you can kind of remove all that and take away all that sort of, I guess, Peter’s version of Diana is that it's not as black and white as she was wronged and that maybe she had some deep issues herself and that she was maybe seeking some spotlight and seeking certain things.

And that she was with someone who was also seeking those. 

E: They were very similar as well. When you kind of,

J: Strikingly similar 

E: Like that speech, you know, when they have that moment of hope. And when she says, Oh, I think we actually both 

J: We're looking for the same thing. 

You know, I think this might be the most important conversation we've ever had, and the solution is so simple.

… Happy Easter my darling.

And I think that's 100% the truth, again in our world, the downfall is that Charles need a Camilla, but Diane, also needs a Camilla or like an equivalent.

E: But that whole scene watching that play out is a beautiful, it's like an act from a play. 

J: Yeah. I think we're really lucky on this show because, because Peter is a playwright there, there are these kinds of almost like set pieces.

because you see the hopefulness and the kind of marriage, and then is this going to work? And it's just not gonna work and you know, the end. And then this is the moment of, as you say of hope

You refuse to come to Highgrove…

… Gosh.

It can't have been, Charles was forced into marriage and that it was miserable because I personally never believed that, I think he loved her. And I think she, yeah, again, this is our narrative and not necessarily reality, but I think they love each other. And there's kind of these moments of just trying to work out what that actually means in this bizarre role that they have. So, yeah, I love, I loved doing that scene. It was great.

Me and Ben Caren talked a lot about, we were trying to work out a way of, there are so many scenes that would happen with Emma and I where Charles arrives from Highgrove having seen Camilla, but we don't see that

E: His Zanadu  

J: His Zanadu. Yeah. We were trying to articulate what it is like a feeling.

Back to, back to Diana and it was this really kind of helpful like view. And then the other day we were doing a scene with Emerald and Ben went, remember Josh, it's your final Camilla. And she was like, I beg your pardon 

E: Haha, secrets out! 

J: She was horrified. What is this! Um, yeah, incredibly reductive, but yeah, I think those scenes with Camilla are great.

One can’t rely on her for the simplest thing…!

… I'll call you back.

E: How is it for you when you are recreating specific moments though? Like the engagement speech is a great example of that, where we know the words that they said, and we know the situation. 

J: As soon as I took this part, I remember the first video when I typed into YouTube Prince Charles’s voice, the first video that came up was him saying ‘whatever in love means’

E: Wow. That was the first thing that come up.

J: That was the first thing that came up. It's the kind of most viewed Prince Charles archival footage because it is to us now it's so ridiculous. It's so hurtful and 

E: Telling

J: And telling. For me, I kind of, yes I try and replicate and try and get his voice down for that particular moment. So that people go that was exactly how I remember it, but I think you've kind of got to be careful not to fall into the trap.

Of, of looking ahead too much. So it, for instance, in that press conference, when they say, and are you very much in love and Diana says, of course, and he says, whatever in love means, for me and for everyone, of course, we're like, Oh my God, that's, that's awful because maybe he wasn't, but I think he's, in that moment he's genuinely saying, you know, that's just a very British thing,

E: Yeah absolutely

J: And male thing at the time of just going er, don’t embarrass me in front of my mates. Yeah

E: Yeah 

E: Yeah. 

J: I think helps that. And it helps lift Charles out of the gloom and like I often think with, with any kind of depression or mental health in any shape or form things build up and things that feel small at the time build and build and build until it gets to a point where that person can't manage it.

No one really confronted the fact that he couldn't be with the woman he loved and that everything's kind of building and building until we get to the near the end of four, where we just see a slightly broken man. And, and so all the kind of gloom and the sadness in Charles, actually, I'm trying to sort of suppress and only show through physicality and stuff like that. And we worked that out really early on with Polly Bennett who did all the movement and William Conacher with a voice about how we can kind of show those things in a physical way, as opposed to a kind of textural
E: The pockets

J: Pockets

E: The more hunched over

J: Yep

E: And then you've got a pass on it. Someone else.

J: I know that's weird. 

E: Is it? 

J: It is quite weird. I like, exciting. 

E: Yeah. 

J: I'm really, I'm could not be happier. Like I remember talking to Vanessa Kirby about it before they cast anything. When she was thinking about the idea that someone else might pay it.

And. She was so buzzed and excited at the idea of like passing this on and someone else doing it. And yeah, that's pretty much how I feel is that I feel like my part in this really brilliant story has been, it feels like it's been written for me because, and everyone's kind of said that is that it feels like this is the period of that person's life that feels weirdly relevant to me and feels interesting to me. 

E: Josh. Thank you for your time. 

J: Thanks, Edith. 

E: Nice to chat.

I'm Edith Bowman. And my special thanks to our guests on this episode, Julian Jarrold, Mark Wallege and Josh O’Connor. The Crown, The Official Podcast is produced by Netflix and Somethin’ Else in association with Left Bank pictures. 

Join us next time when we go behind the scenes of episode seven, titled The Hereditary Principle. 

At her lowest ebb, Margaret unearths, a shocking secret that shakes her faith in the family and leads her to confront her struggles with mental health.

CLIP

Are you aware of anyone else in your immediate family, struggling with mental health issues….

…. I only ask because I am aware through professional colleagues of the sisters. Sisters?

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