The Crown: The Official Podcast

Clip

Series intro

Welcome to the Crown: The Official Podcast. I'm Edith Bowman and this show will follow the third season of the Netflix original series The Crown episode by episode, taking you behind the scenes, speaking with many of the talented people involved, and diving deep into the stories. 

Episode intro

Today we're talking about Episode Six, titled ‘Tywysog Cymru’. In 1969, Prince Charles spent a term at Aberystwyth University in preparation for being invested as the Prince of Wales, or ‘Tywysog Cymru’ at Caernarfon Castle. The experience gave Charles a chance to not only connect with Wales and it’s language, but also his own identity as a member of the royal family.

We will be talking in depth about the events in the episode, so if you haven’t got round to watching it yet we suggest do it now, or very soon.

Edith v/o

Coming up later, we’ll meet the actor behind Prince Charles, Josh O’Connor.

We’ll also hear from director Christan Schwochow.

Christian Clip

Suzanne Mackie part 1

E: Suzanne Mackie, executive producer of the Crown, welcome. 

S: Thank you.

E: I'm going to pick your brains and I'm going to apologise in advance for my pronunciation of this episode, but I'm going to give it my best shot, which kind of feels appropriate for the whole subject matter of the episode. Erm, [Tywysop Cymru] is how I'm going to say it

S: That sounds very good 

E: Episode six, which is where we're introduced to the young Charles 

S: Prince Charles Yes, of course, because yeah, that I mean, I love the fact that he Prince Charles is such a significant character, of course, such a key character, key member of our royal family, but I love the fact that actually he doesn't come into season three, until episode six. There’s something blissful about his, his absence, and the way in which he then enters the season has such impact, not least because Josh  O’Connor who plays him is so damn good! 

E: Extraordinary 

S: That it suddenly reshapes the season. It gives it a different rhythm, a different register, and He he comes in with such force of nature. Josh is such a sensitive actor that immediately you sort of lean into Charles's complex landscape, emotional landscape and you're in.

E: and he's kind of he's he's in training, isn't he? For so many things? 

S: Yes. 

E: You know, it's kind of it's not one thing. It's it's kind of he's someone's kind of life training he's thrown into, isn't it?

S: Absolutely. It's life training. And of course, what he presents to Peter Morgan's dramatist imagination is that he represents the crown, the future and that immediately offers an opportunity to be quite profound in the dramatising of Prince Charles in what he symbolises both as a as a young man, finding his way in life and a young man who will have to calibrate his life, according to the fact that one day he will be the king of England and he will surpass his mother. Those themes are big, you know, they're Shakespearean and fantastic to grapple with. And imagine, you know, so much of what we do has to be a conjecture of sorts. 

E: Yeah. 

S: And the notion that his life will only become realised, if you like, when his mother passes away is, is really complex and knotty and sort of brilliant to, to imagine and grapple with.

Q: the government proposed and we agree that you should spend a term at the university there

…sometimes duty requires one to out personal feelings aside

Suzanne Mackie part 2

E: In the episode as well where you know, Wales is featured very prominently in this series so far and, and beautifully and delicately in Episode Three, but a very different story around Wales and Welsh nationalism, your language in this 

S: Yeah, 

E: this as well but but brilliantly told

S: It was a wonderful episode to to work on. James Graham wrote it with Peter. And it allowed them both to explore Welsh nationalism that obviously have so many resonances for today. 

S: Yeah 

E: About a disconnect, about an identity and who we are and what we are. And I think I think it goes to the heart of so much of Great Britain's complex landscape and geopolitics and the nation's identity and that it can stand proudly and can often be unrecognised and overlooked. 

E: Yeah. 

S: And that of course, in one simple swhoop, allowed us to go from, you know, from big to intimate, so that the ignored the overlook could then be Charles's predicament. It's Charles's predicament, both the country and the person if you like, 

E: Yeah, and why was the investiture an important thing to cover and to feature?

S: The Prince of Wales conjures so many emotions I suppose for for for Great Britain, for Wales. And it's it's controversial, his predecessors, past Prince of Wales have not been successful. So it's a burden and a gift and in one fell swoop. And I suppose also, the Queen bestows that on on on both the son and the future monarch, and that in itself is interesting and complex. And you know, I suppose in story terms it's multi-layered. It's symbolic and it's significant and it's what feels both exciting and good and and also troubling.

E: Yeah. And was it the it was always the choice, and I love that you made that choice, of making it heavily Welsh language based. 

S: Yeah 

E: As opposed to just having Welsh people speak English.

S: Yeah, no, I think that's absolutely right. I think we endeavour to do that wherever I think authenticity is such a key part of what we, we strive to do that wherever possible. It is respectful to Wales to do that, and, and, so we actually filmed there as much as we could. 

E: Oh wow

S: Yeah. Again, that was part of an ambition of ours to show the respect to Wales to actually go there be there be part of it, to be living amongst the community. 

Episode clip – Charles first welsh lesson

M: We learn through imitation…

C:…do you speak Welsh?

Suzanne Mackie Part 3

S: The episode’s directed by a German director called Christian Schwochow, who's extraordinary and I think a brilliant talent. And we and Peter talked about maybe finding a director that could possibly have a different eye on on the world, and maybe to not just always have British born directors, but to maybe look elsewhere. That that was interesting that we wanted to keep refreshing and evolving and, and Christian, we approached because we really admired his work. And he really responded to it very emotionally and he having been brought up in communist Berlin. It registered for him somehow. On a very deep level, and it's hard to articulate why, but somehow we understood that 

E: Yeah, 

S: And so he, and it was it was, in many ways, a risky thing to bring in a German speaking director to understand the very complex, nuanced world of the British royal family, the British class system. And then on top of that, to immerse him in Wales and have him understand that and I look at the result, and I think it's exquisite and then exquisitely understood emotionally, and politically, and I love all the episodes, and I couldn't pick a favourite, but it's one that I find immensely stirring.

The director of episode 6 of season 3 of the crown is Christian Schwochow, who we met in the last episode of this podcast. He told me about why he was so excited to take on the episode which introduces Prince Charles into the series.

C: I was so happy because it's something completely different. Yeah. And I knew this is big, because it's my job to introduce young prince charles to the crown, which is like a big honour. So I was, I was really lucky. I mean, all the episodes are great, but it's such a big story. Yeah. His way into Wales into the world, culture and how he builds up the relationship with Teddy Milward, His teacher is to try to teach him Welsh and the whole journey to find himself and how he ends up giving this amazing speech and actually giving something back to the people. It always felt to me like, like, like a feature film.

E: It's also the the way that that we are really introduced in a really intense way of Josh’s performance as Prince Charles and Josh is extraordinary, isn't he? 

C: I was so amazed. I mean, we met a few times before we started filming so we would go out and have dinner and became friends. Because this is the way I work. I need to build up a relationship with the with my main cast, so it was great because he was nervous but he also was he was also confident and he was ready for the adventure and the first three days of our shoot, we did so many of his big scenes, especially the office scenes with Teddy Milward where he does the tongue twisters I think I was shooting day two. Wow. And the whole crew was applauding after the first words rehearsal. It was It was great.

Episode clip – Charles tongue twisters

A tutor who tutored the flute tried to teach two young tooters to toot…

….at a minute or two today!

Christian Schwochow Part 2

C: He gets to Wales. And of course they there are some people in the streets who who applaud but then when you watch the research material, people really hated him. They said go home and I mean you. He was a boy he was how old 19/20 go to a place and you know, everybody hates to hear, how horrible! It must have been really lonely. We heard a story of Charles making friends with Two old ladies and Aberystwyth, who were running a tiny pub and he would go there to watch BBC with them. Because he didn't have anyone else.

And then of course, he met Teddy Millward, we met the real Teddy Millward.

E: Wow. What was he like? 

C: well, he's very old now. But we showed him the episode. And that was very moving. We went to Wales, Oona the producer, and me and we were booked the cinema just for him. He was really moved. And I mean, he had some, some moments who said, “this is not me”. But But he but he enjoyed it. Because our Teddy Milward of course its not replicating, it’s not about imitating reality. But there are so many situations where he said, this is how he felt and this is how Charles appeared in his eyes and it was wonderful because he's daughter, who's actually also part of the episode because her mom is pregnant in our episode. Yeah. So this is this is her and she helped us a lot. And she would give us the old original speeches of her dad and help us a lot to build his character and the whole episode.

Charles: I'm very grateful for this. I hope you'll be able to put your feelings to one side. I gather you're a Welsh nationalist……

M: …I’m for things. For my country, like culture and my language Most of all.

E: and the crescendo of that performance, you know, which, which we see is, you know, there's almost those two, two endings to the episode almost, you know, in terms of when he has to make that speech, and Welsh in front of everyone

C: there's three endings actually

E: Go in then and talk me through them. 

C: Well, the big ending is, of course, Charles giving his speech at the investiture and Caernarfon castle and finding his own voice and his own words, without his family knowing or having any idea and what he's talking about. And the Welsh people are moved by his words and it was amazing experience to shoot this scene at Caernarfon in the original castle and all the extras were Welsh people and everyone that even the people who are Too young to have been there... They have it in their bodies and they were really moved and so many emotions came up and I would say we can feel it in the picture as well. So that was one ending. And then the second ending to me is him meeting Milward after the speech because Millward was invited but he wouldn't go to the castle. This is where I draw the line and I find it a very, very touching ending, and it kind of became a lifelong friendship. So they are still in touch, Charles and the real Teddy Millward. Charles writes him cards or letters. And so and I think we get a sense of that in in that last scene. So second ending, but then ending number three. Yeah, charles coming home and expecting At least something from his family. And then he comes back and there's nobody, and the Queen doesn't even want to speak to him. And when she speaks to him, it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. She's so cold, she's so she's using the most cruel world words you can you can use as a mother to show him what is his role in this family? And what is his life going to be like? No one is interested in your voice. nobody's interested in who you actually are. And I mean, for a young person. This is this is more than heartbreaking

E: To hear that from anyone is hard, but to hear it from your mother. Yes, it's particularly hard.

C: Yes. I was speaking to Olivia about this last night. And I mean, it's, I love that scene, because after Charles has left the room, we see her sitting at her little, how do you call it like, like a table, looking at herself in the mirror, and then the pressure goes out of her body and we know it's not what she believes in, but she has to say it.

E: If this union is to endure, then we must learn to respect each other's differences…

…..It is not a choice. It is a duty.

Now it's time to meet the next in line for the throne. The phenomenal actor Josh O'Connor.

Josh O’Connor part 1

E: Josh, welcome to our crown podcast, Your Highness. 

J: Oh wow, cool! Thanks Edith.

E: Our very own Prince Charles, I've got to say congratulations, first of all, because and your performance is extraordinary in this season. It really is. And I want to know what you had to do to get the part what was the audition process?

J: initially, I was I was filming in Brussels and just having a chat with my agent and she said, ‘Do you watch the crown?’ To which I said ‘Obviously’. And she said, ‘Well, you know, they're recasting everyone and jumping ahead in time’. And I was like right so obviously they want to see me for Prince Charles. Because I just assumed, I didn't know I actually didn't know they're going to do that by just thought you know, there’s only a coulple of us with the ears. So then she said obviously, yes. So then I thought about I think, and this is kind of shamefully, initially my feeling was maybe not the right thing. 

E: Yeah. Why? 

J: I think just because I actually just thought that in my head Prince Charles, you know, partly because I'm probably brought up a Republican. 

E: Yeah. 

J: Sort of indifferent and if pressed, but really not interested in the royals, 

so it took a bit of convincing it. They sent me a script. And as soon as I read that script, I was like, I'm straight in what is there was this one line where I think I’m straight in. episode eight, episode eight, , dangling man, exactly. Where he compares. Actually, he compares himself to the character from the angry man Saul Bellow book about a man who is waiting to be drafted to go to war. And he actually wants to be drafted because it will give his life meaning, even if that means going to a certain death. Essentially, this idea that Prince Charles has to wait for his mother to die for him to be truly alive. I was like, that's, that's it. That's enough for me to really get my teeth into. And so that was kind of that was the moment ready.

E: you talked about your perception of him prior to coming on to this and, and really finding out who he was as a person, as opposed to as Prince Charles, was that quite easy to get to and find and what did you do to try and dive into finding him?

J: in a weird way It wasn't actually sort of wasn't actually that it wasn't kind of finding him that was the the, the tricky part, as you say, like the physicality the voice Yeah, it's well known and you probably speak to the people who do that. Yeah, Polly Bennett who just the movement is incredible. William connacher is like the best kind of dialect coach imaginable. Yeah. And has worked on all the seasons, knows these voice in these characters inside out. And so, so much of that work was done very quickly, and I could kind of get into the hardest thing actually was letting all that work go. Yeah, and sort of get into the exciting bit which is creating the fictional character of Prince Charles as opposed to what we see every day on the news or whatever. And, and that the kind of the moment that sort of where it clicked, I guess. I was I was trying to think of moments in in film and culture, where I've seen performances of real people that have like, grabbed me. And of course, their incredible performances by people like Michael Sheen, and incredible performances by I didn't know a number of actors who played, you know, Meryl Streep, who paid real people. Yeah. The ones that always stuck with me what was eight actors playing Bob Dylan

I think it's called I'm I'm still here. I'm not there. 

E: I'm not there. Yeah, 

J:. And I just thought, to me that is so much more interesting as an audience member to see, like, an essence of a character as opposed to what we recognise as Prince Charles, because we don't none of us know essentially. And I and also I'm not a mimic, and I'm not in the I'm not in the business of replicating I'm in the business of creating and and so that was the kind of that was the hardest bit was letting go of all that stuff. Yeah, I'm just going right now. I just got to create something new.

E: Amazing. And we're going to talk about some specifics. Episode 6… 

we start the season and we kind of we don't with the seat Charles for a little while and then suddenly he's kind of there in the background and suddenly it's kind of like, wow, here he is. And here is this huge event that he is thrown into. And just for me, this whole episode is about his relationships, his relationship with Wales, his relationship with his family, his relationship with this kind of strange mentor that he befriends when he sent away to Wales. And I just wanted to talk a little bit about that episode, and I believe that one of your first days of filming was a big scene in the episode is that right? The biggest maybe?

J: the first day of I think first day, certainly the first day of filming with the family. Yes, obviously they've been filming for a while. And was this welsh speech, and Helena got the giggles as always. Yeah. Because I think I guess they must have been. I'm understand there was a lot of talk of like, oh, and when's just gonna turn up when it's just gonna start doing his job. And for me to turn up and the first and they must have been like, you know what? I'm interested to see what his Charles is like. Yeah. I mean, if they read the script, always meet

E: Apparently Olivia doesn't read the script.

J: Olivia would have no idea. But I think just the idea of me opening my mouth and speaking as far as she's concerned…gobbledygook just must have sounded absurd. But that was my first day was terrifying.

Episode Clip investiture intro

“I Charles…

….to live and die amongst all manour of folks.”

E: How do you what was your preparation for that? Because There's, you know, you're, like you say in terms of losing all that kind of baggage that came with this character that you're creating. And there's a lot to play with. The environment that he's in as well, which was by all accounts really terrifying. There was people who were happy he was there was also a lot of people who weren’t.

J: Yeah, animosity, yeah. I reckon I mean that I always had in my mind making it,, the kind of endpoint which is really important to me, which is Richard the second. because partly because it is it's a part of always wants to play this my challenge. It was a really funny discussion. I'll mention where. Someone said to me very, I think it was Peter Morgan said to me, you know, we need to discuss whether Prince Charles is a good actor or a bad actor, and I was like, peter I'm playing Richard the second on it on the crown on Netflix. He's a good actor! I want to do it well. I'm you know,          I’m not making it rubbish! This is my chance I might never play this part again. 

E: do you think he is a good actor?

J: I think he probably is. I mean he is, we see him all the time being a great kind of performer in the public eye, I imagine he probably was. I guess I had that as my end sort of end point and the moment of Caernarfon and doing that speech was this sort of I guess the feeling of the role being such a weighted role, such a power you know, all this work I’d done on his physicality about having the world on his shoulders this arched over person, Caernarfon was the accumulation of that. He's like a Christmas tree with all these kind of gold garments. and he's it's weighted that all those costumes are heavy. And he is this tiny dot supposedly trying to fill Caernarfon castle, which by the way is not only an epic castle, huge. Also it's open air, it it's, it feels like this massive void, and it's like an echo. And what Christian directed so well I think is this sort of silence, it's almost like Gladiator moment. I'm walking up through the tunnel. And I just wanted him to feel like he, how on earth would he ever fill this role? Because, you know, I don't think he can at that point. I think he's a Lost Boy. walking up that aisle towards a family that he doesn't feel connected to a father that he feels no connection to. A mother who won't hear won't hear what he has to say. Just kind of like devastating really.

E:  This relationship that he had prior to this event with Wales and their relationship after this event, do you think it changed?

J: Yeah, I mean, I would say historically, from everything I've read 100% and that's that for us worked in the narrative. I think. There's the moment where he is at the dinner table is the kind of President and principal of Aberystwyth University take him to dinner, Milward’s sitting Next to him, and he's asked about  Llywelyn ap Gruffudd. And he has no idea who he is that that I think that that has the has to have had an impact on him. Wales has such a clear identity. And previous to him being the invested, he, of course, wouldn't have had much of an interaction with wales. And as far as I know, the Charles has been the most active Prince of Wales recorded. 

E: Yeah. 

J: And there's done so much in in that nation and I feel, you know, whilst I'm sure there's kind of, you know, where we are the crown and we are fictionalising aspects. I'm sure that he's, you know, he must have changed his views.

Episdoe Clip – talking about Llywelyn ap Gruffudd

“Now I know who  Llywelyn ap Gruffudd was…

…I can’t ever be a son of Wales…but I am working on the Welsh speaking part.”

E: Milward. What was an incredible character and real character and relationship that we see develop as well and you actually went to, to meet the real Teddy Millward didn’t you? How was that?

J: amazingly he came to us because we were we were desperate to meet him. Mark and I, Mark Lewis Jones who plays Milward, He's incredible in this episode. Mark and I were both keen to meet him. The day he came was such a it was a weirdly kind of spooky moment because we were in Aberystwyth and shooting a couple of scenes, and Mark and I were in the, in the green room, just having a cup of tea. And then someone said ‘director wants to see you’. So we went downstairs. And as we're going down the stairs, we saw the back of the head of this guy, and immediately Matt was like, that's, that's Teddy Milward. It was kind of like he just had this kind of presence. And it was like weirdly seeing this sort of ghost of a character. 

E: Yeah. 

J: And he was lovely. 

E: And there's a thing about the ties as well is that right? That his daughter gave Mark his ties? is this true?

J: and Amy again this week. Amazing Amy Roberts! Yeah, that's right. I think I didn't know if it won't work Amy asked her or the daughter told me by the way, Mark ends up wearing one of his ties, 

E: And he does this lovely thing where every time you kind of touched it, it was almost like him feeling like he had a bit of a kind of closer to him, so nice. 

J: So lovely. I love that. That’s me all over.

E: I love the relationship though he does have with Anne. That's that feels really true and kind of just authentic as well and working with Erin who plays princess on she's fantastic, Where did she come from? God. She's brilliant.

J: And she's totally invented or I guess reinvented the idea of and you know people don't talk about Anne

E: no one knows anything about Anne.

J: You know, we just got back from the states where everyone's going mad for princess anne and suddenly she’s like this rock star, and it's because she is so funny. When I first started as I say they'd been filming for a little while and I was in and out of left bank offices, working nonstop every day doing research, voice, dialect, everything. And one day Peter was there. And he said, Come on, look at this. And he showed me the scene where Phillip calls in Anne. And Erin was like, yeah, that was that was one of my favourite scenes. When you watch it, it's like, she just goes ‘mmm’ ‘ yes’ and donesn’t move her mouth, just goes ‘yes’ and just makes these noises. And it's absolutely extraordinary. I just remember thinking, right, up your game O’Connor! It’s the real deal! I love that relationship in ep 6 and another scene that's just a moment of pure class. I think it was Christian’s idea, sorry, Erin if it was yours. But I think as Christians basically on the page and kisses Charles on the cheek. And that's it. And it was so powerful as that you know, as written. But then to add the punch to the stomach is like stroke of genius because of course, that's how siblings…you can't just you can't just be nice Yeah, you can you embarrassed by being nice. He like be nice and then whack him in the stomach.

C: Why is she never like that with you?....fancy being the heir?

A: Not if it means going to Wales.

E: It humanises then Yeah, then that's the thing you know, these are people. They're in this extraordinary situation, but they are humans, you know, and they're going through all these different emotions and situations. And you see that at the end of the episode as well once he gets into his Mum's bedroom, and she has this talk at him where she you know, she's she says that no one's interested in what you've got to say, oh my god but then there's just something that Olivia does that you I think she turns so there's a moment where you go a man, that's the two sides. You know, she's just hard to say that because of the duty. Yeah, but the mum side of her there is in there is devastated.

J: Yeah. And it's the constant is the constant battle and conflict in all of them. You know, I always think if Charles was able to see or if my character was able to see the scenes that happen without him. Like when the Queen says you know, should we feel it should we let him say speech, write his own speech, and Phillip’s like absolutely not, that’ll be carnage. You know she is she is fighting his corner but she can't show show Charles that she's fighting his corner. In season one or two I can’t remember which season it's almost an identical conversation with Claire Foy where the Queen says, You know, I can't think breathe like you know I can't do any of these things. So the queen, you know, Olivia plays it so well because it's just something she knows to be true. Yes, she knows how painful it is but she can't show those words. it's doubly hard for Olivia because they call cut and she's just crying. You can’t stop her.

E: You mentioned the End of Episode Six, and that performance of Shakespeare, and how it resonates personally with his story, that lovely shot of Anne in the crowd as well. It's just like, yeah, she's there for him, she’s got his back.

J: Yeah, I know that speech really well and I know that play back to front so it's one of my favourite plays one of the reasons I got into acting was richard the second .

E: wow 

J: so when I just saw that at the end of the episode and and rereading it suddenly thinking, thinking of those words about his richard The second is the king who essentially is struggling, it’s  all about masculinity and all about how to fill that role and feeling like you don't fill that role. And him at the end kind of saying, I live with bread, I eat bread, like you need friends feel want to taste grief. How can you say to me, I am a king. You know, I love the idea that he's please properly pleading and saying, Just see me as one of you will but we never will be able to we can't. What the crown is all about. is trying humanise, the the superhuman but they can't be human. And they're just born into it. And for me, it was like this really kind of dramatic moment that actually…And what Shakespeare does so vividly and powerfully, is sometimes explain the unexplainable through imagery. And through feeling and, and essentially I saw this final soliloquy is everything Charles couldn't say to his Mum. Shakespeare manages to navigate for him.

“Cover your heads and mock not….

….subjected thus how can you say to me I am a king?

I’m Edith Bowman and my special thanks to our guests on this episode Suzanne Mackie, Christian Schwochow and Josh O’Connor.

The Crown: The Official Podcast is produced by Netflix and Somethin’ else in association with Left Bank pictures.

Join us next time when we go behind the scenes of Episode Seven, when Prince Phillip struggles to come to terms with a life without adventure.

“there comes a time in life…

….who I’m married too…we’ll I’ve not been able to achieve the things I’d like to”

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