The Crown: The Official Podcast

E: What is it Martin?

M: A reminder that the BBC interview with the Duke of Windsor is coming up soon….

Welcome to the Crown: The Official Podcast. I'm Edith Bowman and this show will follow the third season of the Netflix original series The Crown episode by episode, taking you behind the scenes, speaking with many of the talented people involved, and diving deep into the stories. 

Today we're talking about episode eight titled dangling man. In his 1944 book dangling man, American author Saul Bellow describes a man who's waiting to be drafted into the army. Whilst he faces death in World War Two, he believes that this is the only way to give meaning to his life. In this episode of the crown, Prince Charles likens himself to the character as he describes what it's like waiting to become king whilst at dinner with his new love Camilla Shand. At the same time, the dynamic of Windsor contemplates his life's meaning, having given up the Crown in 1936, choosing love over duty. 

We'll be talking in depth about the events in this episode, so if you haven't watched it yet, we suggest you do so now or very Soon.

I've never played anyone like a before in my life, and she's taught me so much about the woman I want to be. She's genuinely I think just made me a better person.

We'll also hear from costume designer, Amy Roberts. 

So my little trick is to look and look and look at all those people. And then put it all away and just do your own thing with it.

But first, I talked with Sam Donovan, who directed episodes eight and nine of season three of the Crown. I asked him about working with acting royalty Geraldine Chaplin and Derek Jacobi to portray the elderly Duke and Duchess of Windsor in ‘Dangling Man’.

2:53  

Sam: phenomenal. I worked with him a few years ago on a show called last Tango in Halifax so we’d already had an experience of working together and when I knew he was casting I was just like this is an absolute dream.

3:07  

E: And it's a different situation we see them in as opposed to when we you know back in seasons one and two, this is old couple who almost live in this museum of the Crown in a way Do you know what I mean? Kind of extraordinary to see them how they are and and Geraldine Chaplin as well 

3:26  

S: Geraldine Chapman was wonderful. We put a list together of people to play Wallis and Geraldine was top of our list. So she lives in Switzerland and she flew over to us in London to have a meet and she turned up with these big chunky trainers on these skin tight leather trousers, this really funky colourful bomber jacket, baseball cap and big dark glasses and she looked like something out of salt’n’peppa, you know, the mostly the the coolest 75 year old you've ever met in your entire life and carried it with such confidence and really didn't care. And then when we sat down to chat with her, she was really lovely and understood the character and you know she's kind of American royalty. You know, with her father being Charlie Chaplin she is. She has that. And also she spent a lot of time in France, you know, which is where the Windsors ended up after the abdication so it felt like she understood the world and understood that character.

Wallis: We must throw a party. Our greatest ever party, and concentrate only on happy things…

E: The Duke of Windsor has a really important role almost within this episode where he's almost like a mediary between Charles and the Queen, you know, it's known that him and Charles wrote to each other.

5:18  

S: Well they're actually very similar characters really I mean they and this is I think what the threat was for the Queen but you know he was very much a free thinker. He was curious, he was slightly rebellious. And at the end of the day he put love before duty we put love before the crown. And I think the thing with the Queen was she kind of had to give her permission for Charles to meet him because how often do you get to meet a former Prince of Wales and a former King? You know, any advice that the King in waiting can get from somebody that's been through it, he should take

5:50  

E: We were just watching some real footage of the Duke and Duchess and, you know, I think it's only a few years before he passed away. These interviews of The BBC did, they are upon online and stuff and it's incredible to watch. Even the way they sit they can't say they can't get close enough to each other. They need this is almost even just the angles of their bodies are constantly directed toward 

6:15  

S: Yeah, we looked at that video even though we've it's not written word for word, you know Peters done his own version of it for the for the good of the story that we're telling. We've we did look at the body language and we and we you know with Geraldine and and Derek, you know we watched all those interviews together and looked how she would reach over to him and he would touch her in the Big comforting moments and you know, this just longing look from her all the time as he's as he's speaking and he's opening up about how he feels, you know? Yeah, beautifully, beautifully done.

6:49  

E: Everybody wants to know how much of what's in the crown is true. Yeah. And the way that Peter writes so it's like you believe everything because it's because it's within the confines of the stuff that we already know, do you know what?. And particularly, I think in episode eight, that meeting with the Queen and the Duke, which happened but we don't know what was said. 

7:13  

S: We don't know what was said we can only guess what was said. 

E: I hope they said what you said. 

7:17  

S: I hope they said that as well.

7:18  

E: And the crown always falls a finds its way to the right head. What a line!

7:23  

S: And it does, you know, he wasn't right to be to be king. He's you know, at that time when he abdicated, you know, we're about to go into war and they needed a strong sensible head of state which they got with the brother, you know, yeah. So it does always find its way to the right head and run we're shooting that scene, Derek's performance in that I mean, don't just doesn't hold back even in, you know, directors we never mind when we're turning over. And this was one of these moments where Olivia really had to fight back the tears. Yeah, and all and then we did a crew show up Which is basically where everybody comes in and watches the scene and then we tell everyone what we're what we're kind of into for the for the rest of the day.

E: Oh that's amazing. 

8:08  

S: So kind of how it works is that we have directors rehearsal first, which is basically me, the DOP, the 1st AD and the script supervisor. Yeah. And we will block the same rehearsed block the same Yeah, then I'll talk to the DRP about what angles we're gonna we're gonna shoot how we're gonna cut the scene, essentially how we map it out from a visual storyteller view. We then talked to the first AD to make sure we've got enough time to do what we want to do. And if we don't, then we figure something else out quite quickly. And that can be either changing the shots or asking the actors to change the blocking a little bit. And then we do what's called a crew show, which is which is where then everybody piles in the room. Everyone's kind of squashed in corners, I mean, on the Crown, it's not so bad because the rooms are generally massive and for everybody, but we all kind of squeeze in and watch the you know, watch the the scene. There was not a dry eye in the house with that rehearsal. I mean, the way Derek coughs and splutters and and really struggles that that scene and you knew that this was going to be the last of a meeting between the two of them and the regret and in a weird way the the respect that they have for each other was… Yeah, it was just breathtaking.

9:22  

E: And and then there's that that moment as well when which we know happened as well as when he actually died and his dog jumped off the bed.

9:30  

S: Yeah Black Diamond the pug. You know, Wallis knew that he had passed when the dog jumped off the bed, the animals kind of sixth sense, you know. It was really important for us to kind of get that in and use that as a visual metaphor.

DOW: I underestimated you, we all did….

…..his thoughts have already turned to the matter.

E: We’re introduced to this dilemma than this Love dilemma between Charles and Camilla. Before we get to Diana, you know, it's almost kind of like going back to fact check about things.

11:07  

S: A lot of people don't know about the fact that those two were seeing each other before Diana was on the same know, I think everybody thinks that Camilla was trying to snaffle the crown.

E: A femme fetale! 

S:Yeah. And because she really wanted to become queen, when that is not the truth at all, I think the camilla’s thought of being Queen at the time was the last thing she wanted. You know, she was a party girl and she liked to go out and have fun and was into her country pursuits and actually was happiest when she was a country home popping about in the garden, riding horses, watching the fall alone and having a g&t.

11:45  

E: That was one of your first things you shot wasn't it, the Polo?

11:48  

S: so we had so I was supposed to start prep I think in October and they they called me in earliest to shoot the polo match. So so that was quite a challenge because Because we had Josh O’Connor looking like he could play Polo He trained very, very well. I mean, he had quite a lot of sessions with the polo players. He couldn't ride a horse before so

12:10  

E: even ride a horse? Wow.

12:12  

never even been on a horse I don’t think

12:14  

E: it’s like hockey on a horse isn’t it?

S: This is exactly like hokey on a horse yeah. And he was okay in the end but Andy Buchan who plays Andrew Parker Bowles, on the other hand, had just had a baby his wife and just had a baby so he's a busy looking after the kids looking after newborn. And was just not in any kind of state to be he learning how to play Polo. So he tried but he just wasn't at the level that we kind of needed him to be to make him look like he's going fast. So the clever people at the horse company have got a horse that is essentially a fake horse that's on a quad bike. 

E: This is amazing. 

S: So yes to the So Andy was sat on this horse and had to kind of change the hair for it because polo ponies have kind of current different kinds of hair so there was a kind of panic getting this getting This horse kind of dressed properly. And then as as the quad bike is going along the horse is kind of moving up and down as if as if he's as if he's riding it so we could get all our close up coverage on Andrew and we'd get a lot closer coverage on Josh was you know doing the horse for real, but they can play a quick speed which we needed. So we got kind of good doubles in but I just watched ‘I Tonya’ where they don't all Margot Robbie's face replacement for the ice skating. Yeah, I kind of said to Ben and Reese are VFX guys, what are the chances of you know in our big wide shots and mid shots, can we you know, we're going to be able to replace still faces Yeah, I mean, I can't see under the way how we can sell this scene without without your help. And anyway after a bit of head scratching and research they they pulled it off. Yeah, and it works really well. And also, you know setting up Camilla for the first time Yeah.

C: Go on sir!

S: So apparently, Emerald loved series one of the crown got in touch with or agent got in touch with Nina and Robert, the casting director and said if Camilla ever comes up, I absolutely adore Camilla and I would love to be I would love to you know be be in the room for it so we obviously you know we can we auditioned a lot a lot of people yeah chemistry test with Josh. Yeah, and slowly but surely. 

E: She Smashed it

S: Yeah

14:34  

E: It’s wonderful because we also get to see this side of Charles as well. This kind of practical joker side of it, this really playful side.

S: It is playful. And I think that's why they fell in love. They had a great they share the same sense of humour. Yeah, they're really into the goons, they're really into practical jokes. Camilla apparently, he's got quite a filthy mouth with her jokes, which is, you know, compared to the straitjacket that Charles is usually in in those kind of quite stuffy environments to have someone like Camilla just tells it how it is and is quite, you know, yeah, rude and course, and hilarious and witty all at the same time is it was just an absolute delight for Charles, I think

E: Amy, thank you for being here to talk to us about your wonderful world of costume. I think if I had to choose one department to spend my time in, it would be going back to your costume department because I had the absolute joy of spending a little bit of time walking about it's it's my favourite.

16:18  

Amy: And all those terrific girls that work in there. 

E: How much do you have? What's your ..

A: the regular team that are making or pretty much all the costumes that you see. The Queen Margaret, everybody's made so kind of smaller roles that your source or get made outside, but those girls are making all that to every time you see a major character female characters. It's literally made from scratch

16:46  

E: with season three, at what point did you start working on this season? And how did you start

16:53  

A: probably started about three months before we actually our first shoot date, which sounds like Lot of time, you kind of wanted double that. So I started by endless research because you do have with the Royals, which is a gift and also a worry so much visual reference. So my little plan trick is to look and look and look at all those people, and then put it all away and just do your own thing with it. And hopefully, you've got maybe the essence of the queen or Margaret. Otherwise, I just feel we're not bringing anything fresh and new to it. And there are moments where I think you need to recreate the look like the queen of a van. Yeah, or a wedding or the Jubilee. But even with that, I think it's just like a nod to it.

17:58  

E: Yeah, you have to think about the Actor as well, in terms of it being, you know, almost been tools for them to find the character and find their performance. 

A: Yeah. Yeah, just because the Queen looks great in orange doesn't mean to say Olivia Colman looks great and orange. Yes. Simple as that. It's just finding your way along with the actors, I think,

18:25  

E: and a wonderful opportunity as well to explore characters over a time, a big time period.

18:33  

A: Season One and two, you had that which was done so brilliantly by the two designers on that. But it was a kind of war post war that palette, which is always slightly more sombre. And then suddenly I'm got the job of the 60s, which all right, it's a sort of subtler version than Carnaby Street, but the colours of there I was very struck by When I did my research that the pinks and orange and pastals and was so, so different, and I think, for me like a lot of designers probably it's all about colour. 

19:19

A: It's a huge project. And so many of the characters like all our makes are the like little dolls almost and that the other layer of people like your mums at Aberfan, and politicians or the smaller people in the story actually, yeah, as valuable and important and maybe I maybe I quite like doing them better. Probably. 

E: That's interesting why do you think that is?

A: because doing Margaret or the queen, it's just lovely fabrics. It's great. is fantastic Don't get me wrong. Yeah. But it's I don't know how deeply you get into it. Whereas Alice or an aberfan mom, you've got to get that right , otherwise you let them down you know?. But it's weird is that I've only just thought about that the levels of all the characters in the crown

20:24  

E: And it's interesting because the there are so many big female characters Yeah. In this you know, the family drama. Yeah. And I wanted to ask about when you're approaching dressing the men and looking at the design of the male costumes, is it harder or is it easier than than the women because like you say with Margaret, you've got this kind of you kind of know where you can go with it I guess but with the men, slightly more restricted and,

20:51  

A: I like men's clothes very much in a way you feel. with men. They have that uniform, don't they have this That beautiful impeccable suit, which again have all been made. Charles is slightly old fashioned isn’t he?

21:07  

E: But it's even just you saying, you know, Charles, and the way that it's designed to start the fashion to flare. That's a real subtlety. But it's really important that you know that it's those subtleties. I think that can make a really powerful impact.

21:20  

I hope so. And little things like just the Josh when he goes to Wales, and we found an amazing tie with daffodils on again, you probably went to see that, but so he will definitely tie when he was in Wales. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. To look back and get a little thing. Yeah, little secret things I think are nice, you know.

21:44  

E: And but that's the brilliant thing about it is how enormous this project is, but how intimate and how personal the performances and the emotions that you have as a viewer to them, like Geraldine Chaplin. Who plays Wallis simpson in in season three and oh my god, she's exquisite. 

A: Geraldine is this delicate, tiny little creature. And of course she's a very fine actress and she will embody a Wallace, but in a different way.

22:20  

E: do you I guess there's an element as well even once you've fitted and the you know, the costume is perfect for for that moment for that scene once they get on set and movement and whatever there may well still be adjustments to be made to things or is it once they're on set? That's it kind of like it's locked down?

22:39  

A: It’s kind of like That's it? That's quite a story, because one of her dresses was going to be where she lives on the bed with him. Yeah. And I've done a sleeve, which was like a dragon's fin and I in my head imagine she would put her arm up like around His head. So you would see this amazing shape of the sleeve all pleated, it will look amazing and the light and everything. Well, that never happened. So it was very kind of cross about it and said to Sam that he was missing a trick Sam being the director missing a trick just looked at me and laughed. It wasn’t about my sleeve at all. So you have to stop it and not be indulgent sometimes. Yeah.

E: It's incredible to think how much of it is made though. And what happens to it after?

A: Oh, now this is amazing because most jobs you know you It makes me laugh the angst and worry you put into a costume and then it see the I don't know what happens to it it goes sold to a costume house and ends up in the 5th person in the 10th row on a a big film, but with the crown, they’re all stored and they go on display in museums and exhibitions in America. So what's so brilliant because the work goes on my episodes, its couture standard. So their work will be seen by loads of people. Close up. All Sids’ buttons and fabrics and it's all going to get another life which is so rare

E: Another character that I absolutely love in season three, and I'm really excited to see where that goes is Anne. And she's great. But again, I almost feel like I've learned more about on in season three of the crown than I knew about her as a person. It's a wonderful exploration of her as a person. 

A: Yeah,of all the Royal women. She's the surprise, Isn't she? Yeah, both what she wears jeans, peas jackets, to really Amazing hats and 60’s style dresses. 

Now we’ll hear from someone I’ve been dying to meet, Princess Anne herself, Erin Doherty. I asked her about getting the part.

Erin Doherty: I was I was doing a play at the time, and I got a phone call from my agent and I was like, oh Okay, I got, I got off the phone. And I was like, find The Crown. I knew what The Crown was, but I had no idea who Princess Anne was. I genuinely was a bit like, I don't know....

E: which ones she? 

E D: I was like who are you talking about. So I went away and did research on YouTube, because there's loads of stuff of her on YouTube

E: Did you watch her on Wogan? 

E D: No, there was one it was, what was it? Was it Wogan? Or was it Parkinson? I think it was Parkinson? 

E: Okay 

E D: She tells a joke at the end of it, basically, and it's the best thing in the world. She's funny. 

E: Yeah, 

E D: I think that's when I like properly fell in love with her. I've never seen I've never seen royal tell a joke. I've never seen it. So I was like- ah she's different. Yeah. And I was like, I just I genuinely fell in love with her from this interview. I really felt for her as well, cuz I was like, I'd never really....I'd grown up and I wasn't really aware of the royal family. They were just kind of there. I didn't expect to have this strong reaction. So I went in for my first meeting in January and I found out I got it at the end of April. So it was like a long period of time. Yeah. And I was Yeah, it was not relaxing. Yeah, I was very, very relieved that it went my way

27:04

E: It's been great talking to all your colleagues about you as well, whether it be Jane Lapotaire, you know, grabbing the cigarette out the ashtray, all that kind of thing....

E D: That was her. She was like, now do you think she'd smoke and I was like, I've never really thought about it. She was like, I think you should smoke. I was like, Okay come on then Jane. Let's do it. She literally took me she was like we're going to do this we're going to do this and I was just happy she just took the reins. She made that scene.

E: And then there's there's I mean, there's so many moments we could I could literally name them all but there's even bits where it's she doesn't she doesn't say anything. It's just a noise sometimes but that says so much more than words could say almost, in terms of her disdain for something

E D: I've never played anyone like this woman like I honestly like I love it. I love the scenes like when I get the scripts through and everything. I love those group scenes where I know I have no lines because I'm like, this is great for me. It's like a free for all for like eye rolls, and grunts. And you know she's gonna be doing it. So I'm like, bring it on. I love those things.

28:06

E: What about the voice? 

E D: That was…Well, the first time I searched …..

E: It is genius by the way! Is it easy to do? 

E D: No! Like, it took me a long time because I've never heard anyone speak like this. 

E: She doesn't move her...

E D: She doesn't move her lips at all. Josh always always laughs at me for this. He's like, I'm gonna do a scene now, you know? And I'm like, Yeah, whatever. Josh doesn't move. It doesn't move it. Like he takes this out me all the time. And I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm being Anne! and she doesn't move her lips. It's such a low.. It doesn't feel natural. You can see like the kind of odd control the she's like got over this voice so it's in a way when I do it, it gets me into her like psychology because it's such a kind of like it makes me really angry basically To put it bluntly like whenever I do it I feel really like controlled and really like I'm going to explode I want to scream or want to do something but you just can't and it's kind of like the epitome of the Royals like she's like she has to be this way you can feel that she has something else to say but she's not allowed to do it. So it manifests in this weird swallowed low not moving lips voice and I love it it's like its own character for me like it was the it was the key to getting into her and understanding of how you can tell a lot about someone by the way they speak. So I was like, right that's all I need to know then.

Anne: I can see perfectly clearly who you are and what this is….

E: Yeah. How important are all those other kind of departments as well?

E D:  It's everything. It's everything. They've built Buckingham Palace, like the whole of the outside of Buckingham Palace is like, there was a big, massive green screen, you're like, Okay, someone's done that like Christ. And then you get you go to a costume fitting and Amy and Sid are there, and they've, they've built these suits and dresses from scratch. And you're just like, this is these these people are incredible. And the fact that they have all taken so much time and putting in so much effort to do their job as best they can. is the most inspiring thing. You just want to be part of the team. 

E: We had a lovely chat with Amy she she was very sweet and she talked so so highly of you and told us a great story about cashmere.

31:04

E D: Oh my god. Oh my god, right. Have you ever worn cashmere? Jesus! Oh my gosh. I'd never worn it. I was in a costume fitting. They're like Okay, let's try this one. They didn't preempt it. They just it was very casual. Okay, one blue jump whatever. Put it on. I lost my mind. It like slid on to my body. What is this heavenly material? It was amazing. And it was like a turtleneck as well. As I was like, just covered in it. I was like this is amazing. 

31:37

E: I can't not ask you about the hair as well and what what does that involve?

E D: She is that hair that hair is her they are one, it's a magnificent thing. 

E: But it is like a magnificent thing to have to wear though?

31:51

E D: Well, when it's on great what I'm doing the scenes great. The process of getting it done. Yeah. It's so intense. 

E: Talk me through it. 

A: Well, you just can't so you like most of the time you rock up to set and it's like five in the morning. So you sit down and they just start back combing your hair. Honestly back combing, like like it's no tomorrow, and then sometimes they'll put rollers in and then sometimes there might be a piece or sometimes that's that's it but then they have to like smooth it into this like crazy lion mane, and it's like, honestly, and you just have to sit there have coffee, It takes hours. It takes hours.

32:31

E: That's it i think that whole episode eight Dangling Man where you know it's it's that kind of weird intwined mess that's going on and stuff I love I didn't even know all that stuff about Anne and Andrew Parker Bowles

32:43

E D: I know. 

E: This is so saucy

E D: I know. But then at the same time I'm like, come on, of course, like, look at her like for one like she's gonna want to go out and like have a good time. She's a teenager. Basically, she's just wanting to throw stuff at a wall. See what breaks see what people say about it? For starters, like Yeah, what you're gonna do? Like, I think she's just so she's just willing to make a mess and see what her family have to say about it. Because I don't think many people I think she sees her brother so frightened about the response of these people. And she's a bit like, Well, come on, like they are also human beings. She's just so willing to push people to the limit. 

Anne: How was it? The candlelit dinner?...

E D: what you've got is these brother and sister who are each other's kind of sound boards for their life because they don't have that relationship with their parents. 

E: Yeah. 

E D: So Anne is having to seek out her brother, saying, Look, don't get yourself into a tis here- you need to know what this is. And I think it's especially weird because she's in the relationship that's making it so entangled. The fact that she's saying look here's the situation, whilst on the other side of things she's going out, or having a good time with Andrew. It just highlights…it highlights the weirdness of this family because I think Anne ultimately, she puts she puts her brother first and she's going like, I know this is gonna be weird for both of us but you didn't I don't want you to get hurt. So it it's great for me because it is also really is it An honest moment of showing how much she values her brother and her brothers feelings over how awkward that conversation would actually be.

35:09

E: And how much Charles trusts her

E D: Yeah, I think they really do have a special relationship kind of it had to be created because of that lack of parental support

E: Yeah

35:22

E D: think it again, whenever you see these people's fragility and real, just absolute care for each other. It takes you back because you don't see these people. You don't see their heart because they're just there this stone family but the moment you give them heart is really important, I think and you get to do that with Anne and Charles.

35:45 

E: Will you be sad to leave Anne behind?

E D: Yeah. Like it's something that I haven't. I don't, I don't think I will think about until it happens because one you kind of there's so much going on that you physically can't. But also I don't want to think about it. I don't want to let go of her because she's one she's meant so much for me in terms of my life and what she's given me but also as a character, like I say, I've never played anyone like that before in my life. And she's taught me so much about the woman I want to be, the human that I want to be and what I value in, in human beings. She's genuinely I think just made me a better person.

E: Oh wow

E D: So to think about letting her go and going that deep into another character, whatever it may be, is a sad one. That's a sad thought. 

E: You must be so thrilled with the response that You in particular have because so many people have been kind of pulling out your performance and the kind of the presence that you've you've really kind of real impact that you've had. You've got to be chuffed about it.

36:50

E D: I yeah, I in a way it sounds really cheesy but I'm kind of I'm just chuffed for Anne. I’m just so glad that like people are saying these things about her, because that's kind of what I'm most happy about is that hopefully, people see her in and have seen her in the new light because I think she's really bloody brilliant. And like especially for her to be on our screens. In this day and age for women in particular I think it's just it's just really wicked!

I'm Edith Bowman and my special thanks to our guests on this episode: Erin Doherty, Amy Roberts, and Sam Donovan. The Crown, the official podcast is produced by netflix and somethin’ else in association with left bunk pictures. Join us next time when we go behind the scenes of episode nine when Prince Charles get some pointed life advice from Wallis Simpson.

Wallis: I’m sorry not to meet your girlfriend…

….watch out for your family

Charles: They mean well

Wallis: No they don’t