The Crown: The Official Podcast

Edith Bowman: Welcome to 'The Crown: The Official Podcast'.

I'm Edith Bowman, and this is the show that follows the fifth season of the Netflix series, 'The Crown' episode by episode. We will be taking you behind the scenes, speaking to many of the creatives involved and diving deep into the stories.

Edith Bowman: Today, we’ll be talking about episode nine, ‘Couple 31’.

Queen Elizabeth is devastated as she runs out of options over Charles and Diana's toxic marriage and asks them to divorce, hoping the Prime Minister can mediate peace in this painful break-up. But will the Wales’ and the fractured Royal Family ever find closure? And will Camilla ever be accepted by Charles's side? 

We will cover specific events and scenes that feature in this episode, so if you haven't managed to watch episode nine, yet, I suggest you do that now, or very soon.

Edith Bowman: Episode nine, 'Couple 31' is... 

Suzanne Mackie: Oh. 

Edith Bowman: Oh, here we go. There I can… soft spot for you?

Suzanne Mackie: Totally. A hundred percent partly cuz it's called ‘Couple Number 31.’ It is such a brilliant concept. And again, true, that they were, you know, just another couple on that day that the divorce papers travelled through the system of, you know, a normal court of law, and was subject to exactly the same procedure that any other normal, divorcing couple would've been. And that, that I found, we all found incredibly moving and incredibly clever of Peter to...

Edith Bowman: So clever.

Suzanne Mackie: Yeah. To call it that and to it be about that, actually. 

Edith Bowman: And the way that it's shot in terms of, you know, we go off and we, we follow other parts of, of the narrative of, of whether it's Camilla on house arrest. We get these little, almost kind of mini-inserts of the next couple that have gone through that process. 

Suzanne Mackie: Hundred percent.

Edith Bowman: Such a clever, it's not a mechanic, but it's, I guess, you know, a creative decision. 

Suzanne Mackie: Yeah, no, I really, I, I, I really applaud the, the storytelling of that episode, and of course, the way in which Christian's shot it, he is such a clever director.

We often all of us sit there and go, "oh, come on, put your hand up if you who's, who's not divorced?" It's like, “okay yes, point made.” But there is the truth, you know, that this is something that feels very, very familiar and universal sadly. 

And, and so the decision to tell it through varying degrees of people's marital pain, whether it's the three couples we depict, which I love, and it was sort of in almost tribute to 'Harry Met Sally' and sort of in reverse. And to be able to sort of show how complex it is and how, how very nuanced and you can't, whether there's terrible acrimony or just sadness, there all those layers and layers of emotion in that world of divorce. 

And even like the, the tiny little moment between John Major and Norma Major where she says, "are you going to come to Chequers this weekend?"And, and he hesitates, and you can see her pain at the thought of yet another weekend without her husband and what that cost is to a family and to a wife or, or a husband all culminating in that final scene, or penultimate scene, between Diana and Charles and what the omelette scene as we call it. And how I, I, I find that what Peter explores in that of regret and doubt, and actually he sort of allows all that to play out in that beautiful, beautiful complex scene. 

Prince Charles: Now that we're here, a review of the marriage, an audit. No judgements, no arguments, just lay it out on the table.

Princess Diana: An autopsy.

Prince Charles: Don't say that.

Princess Diana: Why? Our marriage is dead. We both signed the death certificate. It is an autopsy. 

Edith Bowman: It's incredible, it's you know, and you know, obviously Peter's got so much experience in, in writing for the theatre as well as for TV and film, and that particular scene is very theatrical. 

Suzanne Mackie: Yeah, it is. 

Edith Bowman: Both in terms of how it's written, how it's performed, how it's shot, it's almost like a short film within the episode. It's so incredible. 

Suzanne Mackie: I know. And all those gear changes and all those moments of reaching another moment of, of togetherness and happiness and, and reflection of the good times to suddenly within a split second, be hitting something that's painful and full of anger and, and recrimination, and, and how skilfully both the actors, and Christian, the director, and Peter, the writer, have been able to navigate with such truth that conversation and how it leads ultimately to a door being slammed and despair.

And, and, you know, on one hand you, they come away with defiance. Charles feels defiant that that was the right decision, and yet, you know, there's no way that he would walk away from that without feeling terrible, terrible, terrible despair, as you do, as you do, even when you know, you've made the right decision, even though when you know, you've come to a place of resolution, it doesn't mean that you're not then left with terrible feelings of desolation. 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. You mentioned, you know, John Major and, and his wife and another incredible piece of casting.

Suzanne Mackie: Johnny. 

Edith Bowman: Oh my God. Johnny Lee Miller is like, I mean...

Suzanne Mackie: I know. Who would believe? And then actually, the minute we brought him over and we did the camera test and made him into John Major, it was really surprising and kind of gorgeous.

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Suzanne Mackie: And he's a really, really intuitive actor and it's a really beautiful performance. So yeah, we're thrilled, really thrilled.

Edith Bowman: It's really delicate. 

Suzanne Mackie: Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: Like, you know, the idea of someone playing John Major, you have expectations of that, and he does not go there at all with any of it.

Suzanne Mackie: No it's...

Edith Bowman: And I love that about it.

Suzanne Mackie: Totally agree with you. It's really gentle and, it's and you can understand why the Queen was so at peace with him and trusted him. 

And, and we talked about it as we always do about everything ad nauseam that, you know, I remember hearing Chris Patton talk about John Major on one of a Radio 4…I can't remember what it was. And he said, he spoke with such eloquence about John Major, and he said he was really, very, highly intelligent and that was not to be underestimated how intelligent he was. But also, how incredibly nice he was as a, as a man and also, that, you know, you can't come from Brixton and that background and become the Prime Minister without having something really extraordinary about you.

And so that, I remember we talked about that a lot and Jonny really understood that and yeah, so it's a really, it's a really exciting, you know, you sort of think, ‘oh, that John Major oh it's gonna be a bit, a bit, you know, dull’, but actually Jonny's brought something really fantastic. And again, I think like I hope all our other previous Prime Ministers and, and the portrayals of those Prime Ministers, we've tried to surprise people.

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Suzanne Mackie: By telling them truth that they may not have known. 

Edith Bowman: There's so much in this episode, but always, you know, it's always the thing Peter says about, it's always gotta come back to the Queen.

Suzanne Mackie: Yeah.

Edith Bowman: And she's still the centre of, of everything that happens within the Royal Family. How is incorporating the importance of her within this episode with everything that's going on?

Suzanne Mackie: I think it's just that awful feeling of the walls slowly and surely closing in on you and knowing that in the end, there was no way out other than to accept that the divorce was an inevitability.  But that, what that must mean to her is someone who's been so steadfast and dutiful and self-sacrificing, to witness something that felt the opposite in some respects in her, in her opinion, again, with Queen Mary's rule book in her soul still, you know, how do you then make sense of the future King of England and who would at that point of course known what was going to unravel in terms of Diana's death? 

But yeah, I think, I think it must have been incredibly hard for the Queen, but particularly, you know, in what were such difficult times of her children divorcing sort of right, left, and centre and how she had to navigate that. Yeah, very difficult.

Edith Bowman: Olivia Williams has done an extraordinary job. 

Suzanne Mackie: Yeah, I agree.

Edith Bowman: On so many levels.

Suzanne Mackie: Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: With her performance of Camilla. 

Suzanne Mackie: Mm, yeah.

Edith Bowman: Even, you know, from just this episode, the kind of journey that character goes on from when we see her kind of trying to hide from paparazzi on, you know, in house arrest, basically.

Suzanne Mackie: Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: Because the media's attack on her. 

Suzanne Mackie: Oh, terrible. 

Edith Bowman: To that point where she's meeting the spin doctor. 

Suzanne Mackie: Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: And she, you know, there's the brilliant, I mean, the comedy as well, that's what I love about...

Suzanne Mackie: Car clamping.

Edith Bowman: The car clamping. And she leaves that house and is, has made, has kind of insinuated that she doesn't have what Diana has, because, but then she leaves, and she charms them.

Suzanne Mackie: Yeah. Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: The levels of Peter's writing. 

Suzanne Mackie: Yeah.

Edith Bowman: In terms of on surface level, there's the thing that you watch, and you are entertained by, but if you think about it, there are depths to it. 

Suzanne Mackie: Yeah.

Edith Bowman: And it's saying much more than "there's a clamp" or “I've, I've stopped them from putting a clamp on my car.”

Suzanne Mackie: She talks her way out of a clamp, yeah, and she does it very, she does it very effortlessly doesn't she? And she does it with charm and, and a really harsh reminder of how deeply unpleasant the press were towards her, about her, you know, her eyebrows or her, this or her that. I mean, how horrible that must have been for her to read by comparison to Diana.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Suzanne Mackie: It's so not the fairy story that everyone wanted and how painful that must have been for her and for Charles. But there's one line in it, and I, it's funny actually, cuz I, I wouldn't have sort of hear it and it makes me chuckle, but it didn't really feel like it hit me. 

But in the early days of pre-locking our episodes, we always have little, tiny, tiny internal screenings just to look at it and go, does that work? Or should we cut that? Should we do this? Should we do that? And they're very, they can be quite tense. And now, and again, you have to bring in a couple of people that don't know it at all, and they would always be like people that you work with or someone that you can completely trust.

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Suzanne Mackie: To be discreet, and to be honest, and to be, you know, and that usually is someone that knows 'The Crown'. So we brought in like one or two people that work with us and who knew nothing apart from they know the show. And anyway, and someone that works with me said, 'oh my God, I think the abiding line for the entire season is, has got to be “well, Diana would never get clamped.”’And I just thought, yes that's so right. Diana would never get clamped. It's all brilliant.

Annie Sulzberger: Yes, he did. His name was Mark Boland, and this is around the time he's in very difficult divorce negotiations. 

So, it's mid-1996, things are not going well, they are not seeing eye to eye, he and Diana. But what's on the horizon is once they are divorced, is what happens with Camilla? Because Charles isn't gonna leave her, so they have to rehabilitate her. 

But really Mark Boland is recommended by Camilla's former divorce lawyer, who is an informal guide and advisor for Charles' own divorce. They feel he would be useful, not only for Camilla, but also to just get through this very difficult divorce negotiations. 

And he, aside from Major, I would say, is the other very useful advisor in the divorce. He says like, 'guys, you've gotta get this done. You have to figure yourself out because you are, it's just embarrassing and you're, you're not helping your own reputations if you drag it out.' So he comes on board, and aside from helping just finalise the divorce, he's tasked with masterminding the introduction of Camilla into public life.

And he's a huge presence for us in series six, he, he's there till about 2002. And his sole purpose really is to reverse the image the public has of Camilla, which is like a privileged fox hunting mistress, to make her acceptable to the public. Because if she's acceptable to the public, and the public starts to get a little bit more comfortable with the idea of a remarriage, then Elizabeth can no longer be hostile to it.

And so they focus on if you change public perception, you have to change, it, you know, inevitably her mind will be changed because she'd be going against the public view on Camilla if they come round to her.

So that's his job. And what's interesting about Mark Boland is, this is not a normal courtier. He is not like former Sandhurst, Oxbridge, anything like that. He didn't have any family members who used to work in the palace. This is a kid who grew up in Canada and then went to Middlesbrough for school, and he went to York, he studied chemistry, I think, in uni. And he's just risen through the ranks as being an incredibly good PR guy. 

Well connected, he used to work in this sort of public press complaints commission so he has great connections when he comes in. He's only 30 when he gets hired by Charles, so he's like, yeah, he's an overachiever really. He's charming, but he understands the real world and he has the immediate connections that Charles really needs. So he joins as an assistant private secretary and he will eventually become the most important voice in Charles' court.

Edith Bowman: Coming up later, I will be speaking to Olivia Williams who plays Camilla Parker-Bowles on the show.

In this episode, we get an explosive scene between Charles and Diana which we heard Suzanne Mackie talk about earlier.

When the divorce is finalised, Charles drives to see Diana at Kensington Palace, and what starts off as a pleasant exchange ends in yet another painful argument.

I was desperate to speak to the director of this episode, Christian Schwochow, to hear about the decision making behind how this scene was shot.

Prince Charles: Are those pictures different? 

Princess Diana: Lots of things here are different. Why are you here? Come to take away more furniture? Inform me of some nasty last minute change to the settlement?

Prince Charles: Honestly, I'm not quite sure why I'm here. All I know is I got in the car this morning and it just sort of drove itself here. 

Christian Schwochow: So what we did first is, we've never seen the kitchen before, it's a build, it's a studio build and Frank, my DP and I, we, we started thinking what would we need. And we spoke to Martin Childs, who's the Production Designer, so we kind of developed the layout for that kitchen together. Those three scenes were my three first shooting days for my work on 'The Crown' for season five. I was kind of shocked when I heard that it was three days in the week before Christmas, that would be, because my actual shooting would start in in January. But those three days I met, Elizabeth and Dominic and I realised they really like each other and there was a chemistry and we, we had a, we started with reading the scenes and Peter came in and he would start. That's what always happens when Peter is there when, when we rehearse or shoot, he would start rewriting immediately, which is not always great, but can be great. So we, we would sit and read together and then Peter left, and all three scenes were meant to be shot, on our studio stages. So, we actually started rehearsing for I think two days.

The first scene when Diana is in her, in her drawing room, and then she hears a car pulling over and then she sees him arriving and then he's in the hallway, Frank and I created quite a strict concept for that. You will see the, the shots are very precise. It's very staged, it's very, there's no improvisation within those moments. And then when they actually talk to each other there's, they just got divorced in a way, there is a big, big boundary between them. But towards the end, when he's eating the nuts and she invites him to the kitchen, it all lightens up, and then we see a humour. And then they actually get to the kitchen. So in the first beat, is them talking about like, ‘what shall we eat?’ Because we, we realise, oh, Diana is not a good cook, Charles neither.

Princess Diana: Wait. So we've got eggs, mushrooms, started eating onions now that you've left, ham... I could make an omelette?

Prince Charles: Great. 

Princess Diana: It's impossible. 

Queen Elizabeth: Darren usually leave me notes, sticky notes with instructions. 

Prince Charles: Oh, I see.

Princess Diana: Never mind. Menu has changed having scrambled eggs.

Prince Charles: That's perfect.

Christian Schwochow: So what we did is a whole day, we would shoot them cooking together, improvising a lot, having fun, listening to music. In the final cut, this is all quite short, but we needed it, and it was very helpful that I was given a whole day to, to create that lightness, that, that fun between them, that I needed for the start of the big scene.

And the big scene of course, is not one shot, but it's very simple staging. There's actually, Diana never leaves the table in that scene, Dominic, once before he leaves. So, what we did is every shot we shot as a so-called master shot, so from the first second until the very end. So, we did many, many takes that day and every take was kind of different because I wanted them to go all in and they loved doing that.

I remember we started filming on Diana in the morning and Dominic, he was not even on camera, would cry in almost every single take because he was so in it. And he was so supportive of her and that's something I haven't seen very often, especially by male actors, that they give all their emotion and it's diff- more difficult for men in general to access their emotions.

But she was so strong and as I… I get emotional now just talking about it because it was so powerful how she went all in, but he was the same even being, not on camera.

Edith Bowman: Camera. Wow. 

Christian Schwochow: So, I know they hated me in the afternoon when they had to keep going and I wanted more and more and more, and they were exhausted because this is, I mean, this is so hard.

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Christian Schwochow: Hard work. By then, we didn't know each other that well, because it was our third day together. And I remember Elizabeth kind of indicating she can't, she can't do it anymore, but I knew I, I wasn't there yet. I mean, I didn't...

Edith Bowman: That's almost where you need the character to be in a way.

Christian Schwochow: Exactly, exactly. And so then I allowed them to, to do it, like in theatre where you don't have to pause for the partner to come in with her or his dialogue. So, you can speak at the same time. And that created something new in the very late afternoon. 

And then we filmed, we, we kept filming until the end. So, I think there was a lot of freedom. I think after those three days, the three of us were kind of friends because we, we went through the separation together.

And of course, we talked a lot about our separations during those days and our experience and how we got over them. And that was a great experience for them, and I think actors are always very vulnerable, in, in the process of, of creating a character like this, even though they had done so many scenes before. But very often they just don't know if they're doing a good job or not.

Edith Bowman: Yeah.

Christian Schwochow: It's not that even people tell you, you don't, you feel very insecure. But I had a feeling, we all felt very, very positive about what we had done in those three days, and I was amazed. And after that I felt like, okay, I'm going home for Christmas, but now I, you know, this is a, a very big chunk.

Edith Bowman: Best present.

Christian Schwochow: Yeah. This thing has gone really, really well.

Edith Bowman: And finally it's time to hear from our brand new Camilla Parker-Bowles herself, the amazing Olivia Williams. 

Throughout this series, we've really seen the ups and downs of Camilla's life and the sacrifices she makes for her relationship with Prince Charles. I was lucky enough to sit down with Olivia, and I wanted to hear what she thought Camilla's journey was in this episode in particular.

Olivia Williams: We find her in her Gloucestershire home, in her Gloucestershire bedroom and the photographers are at the gate. 

Once again, my character's on the phone to Charles, but I asked to film it on the floor because when she stands up, she'll be, goes past a window and she's gonna be photographed. So I, I just imagine her sitting on the floor underneath a window and whenever she stands up, they, you know, you hear that noise of cameras firing off, and I think that would be the final straw, wouldn't it? That would be the end of being able to cope when you can't stand up and walk around your house. And there is no escape. 

And I think, although she tries to maintain her, her positivity on the phone to Charles, that when the phone goes down, she despairs. And as I, she's got a nice house, she wasn't going to, you know, she's not starving or, or homeless, but you can still be in despair that can still be intolerable and that still can be abuse. And we know it's a form of abuse that has destroyed many people's mental health. And at that time, this is the time when phone hacking and private detectives were going into people's houses and looking through their stuff.

I mean, at the beginning of that episode, she is at the sort of nadir of the mental abuse of, of press intrusion.

Edith Bowman: And even though she doesn't, she maintains that kind of positivity on the phone to Charles, because of the nature of their relationship, he knows. Because he helps and makes steps towards giving her the tools and the support that she needs to, to kind of address that in a way. And that's that wonderful arc that we see her on in this episode to that point.

Olivia Williams: Yeah. And I think it's difficult to believe now cuz she seems so at ease and at one with herself, but, I think the comparisons with Diana and the dreadful comments, the awful comments about her personal appearance, people talk about a loss of confidence in, in a very sort of blase conversational way. But when you really have lost your confidence, when you don't believe your…yourself worthy, you know, that is a very dark place, low self-esteem. And Charles gives her the strength to go and sort of stake her claim, and, and she takes on this new way of behaving, which she, now we see her in full flow, you know, talking to the press.

The real journey for me, there is the most phenomenal clip which you have to look up when we finish this. If you Google 'Camilla winks at the press' so she's gone from crawling around her bedroom floor, to when Donald Trump came to visit with Melania, and they had to have tea together and they do a little photo call at the end. And finally, Charles has had enough, he says, 'okay, that's enough. Let's go.' And he lets Melania go first, and then Donald and then Camilla lets Charles go.

And she turns to the press and gives them a big wink. And it is the dirtiest, funniest, cheekiest 'I'm with you. We all know why we are here. Isn't this ridiculous?' wink. And this woman has gone from crawling around her bedroom floor, afraid, harried, terrorized by the press to giving them a big old wink as she leaves. And, that, that's the journey of 31, 'Couple 31.'

Prince Charles: Anyway. How are things with you? Those ghastly people gone from the end of your drive? 

Camilla Parker-Bowles: Oh, sadly not. They seem to have set up home there. I have to creep around like a criminal under house arrest. Mrs. Campbell has to deliver all my food to me, and I can't even take the dogs for a walk. I'm literally under siege. Literally.

Edith Bowman: Where did your process start for your version of Camilla?

Olivia Williams: The voice is a very good place to start, particularly with her. And I had a lovely, very early meeting with our dialect, you know, voice coach William. And sort of the first thing he said was ‘chesty, chesty.’ Because, you know, some Sloanes can be very nasal. But he was like, ‘no nasal, there's absolutely no, it's actually almost an absence of nasality you almost sound quite like your nose is blocked, and maybe as if you are trying to keep a sort of bad smell out of your airways slightly.’ So, where ‘Ms’, the letter M almost becomes the letter B, and I had a lovely line, and I think my first appearance where I had to say modern democracy. And so, I had an opportunity to do the M B inversion very early on. And…

Edith Bowman: I wonder if William spoke to Peter and tried to get something in specifically in the script, that would be clever.

Olivia Williams: 'Modern democracy' was there very early on.  

I am obsessed with Radio 4. I listen to Radio 4 all the time. If it's true, it's on Radio 4, and if it's not true, it's not on Radio 4 as far as I'm concerned. And I've listened to it all the way through my life, and I can sort of time my life, you know, if I hear a little bit of 'You and Yours', I know it's somewhere between 12 and 1. If it's, you know, 'The Archers' so my - and, I realised I have that in common with Camilla.

Edith Bowman: Okay.

Olivia Williams: Almost nothing else in common, but we are totally obsessed with 'Start the Week.' And she is so obsessed with 'Start the Week', that she actually incorporates it into her love play, because in this famous conversation, she says, 'yeah, it's like that program 'Start The Week. I can't start the week without you.' 

And, and so in my life, I've now started to sort of incorporate Radio 4 programme names into my life. It's like, 'mm that's a bit 'You and Yours'.

Edith Bowman: Love that. 

Olivia Williams: And gosh, I don't think I can eat anymore, I'm a bit 'Archers Omnibus'. I'd like to see your 'Moneybox Live'. So yeah, she's brought that into my life, that how can you incorporate Radio 4 titles into your.

Edith Bowman: Everyday.

Olivia Williams: Yeah, into your conversation. 

Edith Bowman: The, the brilliant thing about 'The Crown' from what I've been very grateful to discover is just this collaborative nature that this show has with so many departments that are there kind of at your beck and call as an, as an actor, as a kind of playground of what toys you need to have the best play in this wonderful playground. 

And with Camilla as well, it's really interesting because I imagine that for you with research, I dunno how much research you did, but... there's only Camilla, almost only really enters our, our world through us hearing her, and seeing her at a certain point. There's not really much before that. How was that for you in terms of, did you, you know, did you dive into research on her or where did that sort of part of it?

Olivia Williams: When you realise you are going to play somebody, it, one sort of search history becomes very embarrassing. The phone, cause now whenever I, you know, they, my telephone, my phone suggests something to me it's usually Royal related, it's just like 'Hello!' Magazine articles from the nineties keep popping up in my you might also be interested in, so, yeah, there was a lot of that going on.

Edith Bowman: I think that that's one of the many wonderful things that, that you do, but you and Dominic do in this season is you give this relationship that started way before you know, that there was, you know, they were childhood sweethearts, they had this, and this connection that they had that has stood the test of time. It stood so much, you know, in, in the real world, obviously it's dramatisation. 

Olivia Williams: Yeah. 

Edith Bowman: But I feel like the, the, the work that you and Dominic do individually, but together, particularly you really show that sort of, you solidify that relationship. You solidify that kind of bond they have. And we see that not only in this episode, but also in episode five, where we hear the intimate conversation between Charles and Camilla on the telephone.

And I just think that that's a wonderful thing where you've given, you've kind of readdressed things almost in a way within the show. And I wondered if that's something you think about in terms of, you know, you talk about seeing those pictures of her in the nineties and kind of feeling her pain through the eyes and wanting to address that in your performance and give it kind of truth and give that relationship depth and honesty really. 

Olivia Williams: Absolutely. I mean, I think my point about that conversation is first of all, no one else was meant to hear it. So, we've all got silly jokes that we have with our beloveds, that it would be mortifying if anybody else heard what, you know. And, I always think of DH Lawrence, who tried to sort of, sort of put on a ped- pedestal, sort of give dignity to the silly names that we give each other's genitalia and things like that.

But, you know, there is no dignity to it really, no matter how literary you want to get. But actually, with this conversation to me, my Dad was a huge fan of 'The Goon Show' and I happened to know just because my Dad left all his 'Goon Show' scripts and I've got them all still. And that Prince Charles was a massive 'Goon Show' fan, and, to me, that conversation is hugely surreal. It's like, it's like Spike Milligan. It's, it's nutty and sweetly self-effacing, actually, because he doesn't say, 'I want to be your tampon.' He doesn't. He says, 'knowing my luck.' 

Edith Bowman: Yeah. 

Olivia Williams: You know, 'I would end up as.' That is self-effacing, that is not a sexual fantasy.

You know, she's the one, she's Benny Hill frankly, you know. She's the one who he says, he, she, he says, 'I want to be near you all the time.' And she says, 'what are you gonna be a pair of knickers?' That's like silly and, but a little bit dirty, a little bit Benny Hill. And, and he says, 'knowing my luck I'd end up as your tampon’, and then going round and round the sort of toilet of eternity and never flushing down. Obviously, he wouldn't say toilet cuz that's common. But anyway, now that to me was, you know, him going, you know, it's, it's my bad luck and it's funny and that's their humour.

And the brilliant way it is being cut together, this, this thing that's become, Peter's sort of signature, the setting of a very domestic, very small personal scene against the backdrop of national and international reaction. And this sequence, I think is the ultimate example of that as you hear the things they're saying and cut to the reaction of each member of the family, reading the newspaper, as poor Dominic, you know, puts his head into his hands in that last scene, in that last part of the montage. So, I'm, I'm as happy as I could be with an extremely uncomfortable making part of Royal history and I'm proud to be part of it. 

Mark Boland: Well, may I start by saying how much sympathy I felt for you, for as long as I can remember really. 

Camilla Parker-Bowles: Don't worry about me. I'm fine. 

Mark Boland: Well, no, I disagree. I think the press and by implication the country, has been monstrous. 

Camilla Parker-Bowles: One doesn't want to be all 'poor me' about it, but people have not been kind. I think they forget loving the Prince of Wales has cost me everything.

Mark Boland: So, what are we going to do about it?

Edith Bowman: It's a really interesting journey, you know, because like you talk about the impact of, of what's going on in her life, but this idea that she's stuck with it. She's kind of, you know, 'one doesn't wanna be all poor me' you know, and, and I love that scene. Do you mind if we talk a little bit in detail about…

Olivia Williams: I'd love to. 

Edith Bowman: About that particular scene? Cuz, I think there's so much in that, and it kind of, it, it really shines a light on the personality of her and what she's willing to do, and, and, and how she's been willing to stand by him and see it through. And she's made that decision, she wants to come out the other side of it. 

Olivia Williams: Yeah. I mean, that, that's the thing is that she is from that stock. She's from that 'I don't want to be all poor me about it'. So that's why for me, I wanted to that to be in her face, but not in her manner or, and, and she is someone who clearly has a, a positive spin for any in situation, bad situation that she's in. And that she would, she's funny. And I have actually weirdly met her. So yeah, she really is funny. 

Edith Bowman: Have you?

Olivia Williams: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was, can't quite believe I was still, shudder to remember it, but I was a judge on the 2016 Booker Prize and had to read 200 novels in six months. 

Edith Bowman: Wow. 

Olivia Williams: Yeah, it was tough, and Camilla is a great believer in literacy and she is patron of the Booker Prize. So as in my capacity, as a judge, I met her. And we had a, we had an 'Archers' hoedown. We talked 'Archers', 'The Archers'.

Edith Bowman: That's the best research any actor could want ever.

Olivia Williams: Yeah, it was brilliant. And something I really love about her is that she champions these charities that help women who are victims of domestic violence.

And she was really into 'The Archers' domestic violence plot, and so was I, so yeah, we chatted about that. But you know, she, in her person, she is looking for the positivity in, in any conversation, even at a do where she has to meet the judges at the Booker Prize, you know, so yeah. I wanted to get that, and she doesn't want pity. She doesn't want, you know, sort of therapy. She doesn't want someone to put her their hand on her knee and say, "there, there, dear." She's like, "what? You know, what are we gonna do about this?”

I love it in, in the scene Peter has us say, ‘you know, the people you've got around, you are doing this terrible job. You know, a bunch of idiots could do this better. Come on. Let's, let's sort this out.’ But I also love it that he makes really clear, that unlike a certain other person, maybe possibly, that being Queen was actually not part of her plan and that, and it never, it never, it never was.

And I, I still believe that. I believe that now that it seems to be, that is, that is what's gonna happen, but I don't think that was ever part of her agenda, I think. And I, and that's, there's something very attractive about that. And I think the fact that she never wanted to sort of take the title of Princess of Wales to which she is entitled, that she respectfully, you know, kept that for the person who'd held it before.

Edith Bowman: It was really, I found it so interesting, we were talking before we started properly, was that you, because of the decade that this is set in that you had to almost take yourself back there physically and know how to react to things of that time. 

Olivia Williams: Yeah. Yes. Well, there being a lot of phone work, you know, I, I was trying to remember what it's like when you, you didn't really walk around a room with a phone, that you had to stay where the phone was cuz there was a wire. And the hours of the amazing kind of cats’ cradles ones used to make with the phone wire. And, and, I read recently I was so happy to have this, this backed up by a newspaper article that, you know, the idea that I think she's someone who stays in her dressing gown all day oh, I mean. 

Edith Bowman: Oh yes. 

Olivia Williams: And probably with a fag hanging out her mouth, and just that the chance to show that domestically, you know, is such a treat. And Amy was totally on board. You know, I was, I was like, you could not, I remember there was this book when we were both young called 'The Sloane Rangers Handbook' and you know, the way you could tell a fake is like, you could not have a new Barbour. Your Barbour could not be new. It had to be, and like Amy found this incredible Barbour, I mean, it was more holes than, than Barbour and the wax had all went and the zip didn't do up. And I was like, that's the one that had a slightly greasy collar. I was like, that is, that's Camilla's Barbour. 

Edith Bowman: They're so important aren't they, Amy and Sid and that the whole department and hair and makeup as well.

Olivia Williams: Well, I need a whole podcast for the wig, because.

Edith Bowman: How many did we, how many did we go through till we found the right one?

Olivia Williams: It was, we, we, she got it first time. 

Edith Bowman: Whoa.

Olivia Williams: I mean, this, I feel that Camilla's wig is the, kind of the pinnacle of 'The Crown's' achievement over six seasons, because actually I've been telling you about the work on the accent, all bollocks.

It's the wig. I put the wig on, I need do nothing. I can just put my feet up and then, you know, I don't need to do anything. And what's wonderful is joining 'The Crown' is a bit like being, like joining the circus. You know, someone comes in a very nice car, which isn't like the circus, but they drive you through the night and you know, you've arrived by the crunch of gravel of some stately home.

And then I tumble into, uh, the makeup trailer and come out dressed as Camilla, and from them on people treat me like royalty. And it is more the people who own these stately homes, you know, get a bit confused and go sort of 'you must come private side.' And, but if I take the wig off, I'm instantly thrown back, you know, back into the honey wagon.

Edith Bowman: The kitchen's that way.

Olivia Williams: Yeah, exactly. 'Do you mind? This is private side.' But yeah, if I've got my wig on, I need do nothing. Job done.

Edith Bowman: I'm Edith Bowman, and I’d like to give special thanks to our guests on this episode Christian Schwochow, Suzanne Mackie, Annie Sulzberger and Olivia Williams.

'The Crown: The Official Podcast' is produced by Netflix and Somethin' Else in association with Left Bank Pictures. 

Join me next time when I go behind the scenes of the final episode of this series titled 'Decommissioned'.

Tony Blair has been appointed Labour Prime Minister after 18 years of Tory government, and his vision for modernisation includes getting rid of the Royal Yacht Britannia, a vessel very close to the Queen’s heart. Prince Charles requests a meeting with Blair, hoping for support in his own plans for change. But, can he align himself to the youthful and energetic new prime minister? 

Prince Charles: It was the first time I've seen it so clearly, a toll that the past few years have taken on her. And her distress, her grief, it wasn't for the Royal Yacht or for her precious memories. It was for herself and the institution she represents, like she felt she was being decommissioned.

Courtier: In which case you must be ready sir, and the country must start to prepare for you as the future.